Oh yes!

rickystl · 27th June 2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Thanks! I actually didn't know the barrel was watered when I got hold of the gun; it was only on closer examination that I spotted the patterning, which of course made me very happy indeed.

Hello. Nice piece for your collection. Yes, very nice barrel. Looks almost Indian (?). Nice piece. Rick.

Atlantia · 27th June 2011, 06:09 PM

NICE!

The damascus barrel is superb. My first thought was Turkish.

Best
Gene

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 06:56 PM

Thanks again, all

Why Turkish, Gene? I'm still very ignorant and would love to learn the recognition features. My first thought (from my limited memory) was Persian, early 19th Century (I'm working on the assumption that the whole piece was assembled about then; the lock's clearly a converted flintlock, after all, and its relative simplicity made me think of the 1805 India Pattern Brown Bess).

Also, I've never seen this sort of fitting to attach the hammer to the shaft. it looks unpleasantly permanent, and I was rather hoping to strip the lock for a clean and a bit of oiling. Looks like it's a screw of some sort, but not one moved by an ordinary screwdriver; is that brass bit a washer?

Atlantia · 27th June 2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Thanks again, all

Why Turkish, Gene? I'm still very ignorant and would love to learn the recognition features. My first thought (from my limited memory) was Persian, early 19th Century (I'm working on the assumption that the whole piece was assembled about then; the lock's clearly a converted flintlock, after all, and its relative simplicity made me think of the 1805 India Pattern Brown Bess).

Also, I've never seen this sort of fitting to attach the hammer to the shaft. it looks unpleasantly permanent, and I was rather hoping to strip the lock for a clean and a bit of oiling. Looks like it's a screw of some sort, but not one moved by an ordinary screwdriver; is that brass bit a washer?

Just the quality of the pattern welding on the barrel and the 'patterns' themselves really. Not that I'm any kind of expert on Jezail'.

rickystl · 27th June 2011, 07:02 PM

though not without a struggle getting her back to York.

Here's a pic of mine that I had to struggle with to get her FROM the UK.

One going in to the UK. One going out of the UK. Rick.

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 07:38 PM

'ello 'ello 'ello, I recognise that! That musket was for sale at the Antiques Storehouse, where I got my first, about a year back. I seem to recall you were going to get a barrel liner put in her - how'd that pan out?

rickystl · 27th June 2011, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

'ello 'ello 'ello, I recognise that! That musket was for sale at the Antiques Storehouse, where I got my first, about a year back. I seem to recall you were going to get a barrel liner put in her - how'd that pan out?

Hello. Yes, that's where I bought it. Took forever to get a proper invoice from the owner. After I received the gun (with about 1/4" of paperwork) I noticed it was missing the whole nipple/drum assembly. Had I known you then, I would have asked you to inspect it for me before I bought it. But, it's OK. I can make a new drum/nipple assembly. I have not started to rebuild this one yet. Too many others I'm working on. The barrel on mine is plain and fairly well pitted. So it's a good candidate to do this. I would not do it with your barrel. I wouldn't want to risk the decoration/steel on the barrel.
Your Lock: Where the hammer screw would normally be, your's appears to be a pin/washer assemble held tight from the INSIDE of the lock. But not sure. If you remove the two scews from the stirrup (the semi-U shaped item) you can probably tell how the hammer is held on. I would first use some good penetrating oil on those screws, and let it sit for a few days.
Your's should clean up very well. Rick.

RDGAC · 27th June 2011, 09:36 PM

Hello Rick - in fairness, I live towards the opposite end of the country (York's about 200 miles away from Brighton), and it costs a goodly amount to cover the distance; I'm not sure I'd be of too much use.

I've pulled the lock apart as far as I can (quick squirt of WD40 seems to have been enough to slacken the screws, the mainspring's excepted) and can't see any obvious means of detaching the tumbler from the hammer from within. There's a further problem: the barrel tang screw is attached to the sling swivel by a bent iron spike, which looks very unlikely to respond well to being pulled, pushed, hammered etc. Meanwhile, the bottom (or, depending on PoV, the top) of the screw has been hammered flat, and spread accordingly; this is presumably intended to stop the screw from slipping through, as it's likely worn its threads right out. This likely means dismounting the barrel is going to be a tricky proposition.

One obvious (but invasive) solution would be to file away the flattened-out edges of the screw and simply pull the whole assembly out; then, assuming I can find an appropriate die nut, gently freshen up the threads a bit and see if they'll then grip the hole in the tang. If that fails, I can then replace the screw and, mounting the gun correctly, gently hammer the screw's head until it spreads enough to be held in place again. Any thoughts, chaps?

RDGAC · 30th June 2011, 08:57 PM

Some more detailed photos. Can't figure out that hammer attachment, and you can hopefully see why. Lock marks look genuine to me, but we shall see. Hammer's unusually nicely made, even though the throw seems a little off. Also, there are a couple of views of the barrel bands and the silver inlay towards the rear sight.

rickystl · 30th June 2011, 09:50 PM

Hello again. Oh, the joys of working on antique middle eastern firearms

After reading your last Post, and again looking at your photos. First of all the Hammer Screw: I looks like it may have had a slot for a screwdrive at one time in the past (?). Maybe the threads were so worn, and maybe an ear was broke on the screw head, someone just hammered it flat to keep the hammer from falling off. That would explain the brass washer under it. You might use a hacksaw

and cut a slot on the head so you can use a flat blade screwdriver and try to remove it. Of course, this assumes that it actually is threaded into the tumbler/shaft. NOTE: I have seen locks where the tumbler and shaft are one piece. And others that are two pieces.
The Barrel: Hmmmm. It would be interesting to know if that pin that goes from the sling swivel is threaded to the barrel tang. Or is it just a pin that is hammered to the tang. I can't tell by the photo. The small pin at the sling swivel would have to be removed in any case. It's probably malable iron and would be easy to file narrow - just enough to remove it. Keep me posted on your progress. Your's has all kinds of interesting twists and turns to dis-assemble

By the way, Afgan rifles are noted for this. Most saw so much hard use that when a repair was needed in the field they likely resorted to whatever method of repair was available with no gunsmith available. Their guns were probably in a constant state of repair. But this is part of the "mystic" I find so interesting about these guns. Again, thanks for posting. Rick.

27th June 2011, 07:02 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	though not without a struggle getting her back to York. Here's a pic of mine that I had to struggle with to get her FROM the UK. One going in to the UK. One going out of the UK. Rick. Attached Images

27th June 2011, 09:36 PM	#8
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Hello Rick - in fairness, I live towards the opposite end of the country (York's about 200 miles away from Brighton), and it costs a goodly amount to cover the distance; I'm not sure I'd be of too much use. I've pulled the lock apart as far as I can (quick squirt of WD40 seems to have been enough to slacken the screws, the mainspring's excepted) and can't see any obvious means of detaching the tumbler from the hammer from within. There's a further problem: the barrel tang screw is attached to the sling swivel by a bent iron spike, which looks very unlikely to respond well to being pulled, pushed, hammered etc. Meanwhile, the bottom (or, depending on PoV, the top) of the screw has been hammered flat, and spread accordingly; this is presumably intended to stop the screw from slipping through, as it's likely worn its threads right out. This likely means dismounting the barrel is going to be a tricky proposition. One obvious (but invasive) solution would be to file away the flattened-out edges of the screw and simply pull the whole assembly out; then, assuming I can find an appropriate die nut, gently freshen up the threads a bit and see if they'll then grip the hole in the tang. If that fails, I can then replace the screw and, mounting the gun correctly, gently hammer the screw's head until it spreads enough to be held in place again. Any thoughts, chaps? Last edited by RDGAC; 27th June 2011 at 10:00 PM.

30th June 2011, 08:57 PM	#9
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Some more detailed photos. Can't figure out that hammer attachment, and you can hopefully see why. Lock marks look genuine to me, but we shall see. Hammer's unusually nicely made, even though the throw seems a little off. Also, there are a couple of views of the barrel bands and the silver inlay towards the rear sight. Attached Images

27th June 2011, 06:09 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	NICE! The damascus barrel is superb. My first thought was Turkish. Best Gene

27th June 2011, 06:56 PM	#3
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Thanks again, all Why Turkish, Gene? I'm still very ignorant and would love to learn the recognition features. My first thought (from my limited memory) was Persian, early 19th Century (I'm working on the assumption that the whole piece was assembled about then; the lock's clearly a converted flintlock, after all, and its relative simplicity made me think of the 1805 India Pattern Brown Bess). Also, I've never seen this sort of fitting to attach the hammer to the shaft. it looks unpleasantly permanent, and I was rather hoping to strip the lock for a clean and a bit of oiling. Looks like it's a screw of some sort, but not one moved by an ordinary screwdriver; is that brass bit a washer?

27th June 2011, 07:38 PM	#6
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	'ello 'ello 'ello, I recognise that! That musket was for sale at the Antiques Storehouse, where I got my first, about a year back. I seem to recall you were going to get a barrel liner put in her - how'd that pan out?

30th June 2011, 09:50 PM	#10
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hello again. Oh, the joys of working on antique middle eastern firearms After reading your last Post, and again looking at your photos. First of all the Hammer Screw: I looks like it may have had a slot for a screwdrive at one time in the past (?). Maybe the threads were so worn, and maybe an ear was broke on the screw head, someone just hammered it flat to keep the hammer from falling off. That would explain the brass washer under it. You might use a hacksaw and cut a slot on the head so you can use a flat blade screwdriver and try to remove it. Of course, this assumes that it actually is threaded into the tumbler/shaft. NOTE: I have seen locks where the tumbler and shaft are one piece. And others that are two pieces. The Barrel: Hmmmm. It would be interesting to know if that pin that goes from the sling swivel is threaded to the barrel tang. Or is it just a pin that is hammered to the tang. I can't tell by the photo. The small pin at the sling swivel would have to be removed in any case. It's probably malable iron and would be easy to file narrow - just enough to remove it. Keep me posted on your progress. Your's has all kinds of interesting twists and turns to dis-assemble By the way, Afgan rifles are noted for this. Most saw so much hard use that when a repair was needed in the field they likely resorted to whatever method of repair was available with no gunsmith available. Their guns were probably in a constant state of repair. But this is part of the "mystic" I find so interesting about these guns. Again, thanks for posting. Rick.