Kaskara with French Inscription

Iain · 20th May 2011, 09:21 AM

Hi Nicolas,

That's what I figured more or less. If only there was a little more to the verses on the sword to tie it to Rimbaud! Might be interesting to see if there's any academics who specialize in his works who might be able to give an opinion if the style fits with Rimbaud? I read that at least some of his letters survive from the period he was in Africa.

Otherwise I have to say, the subject matter seems the sort of thing that would be on most solider's minds! Of course how it is expressed is far more eloquent than the average solider would come up with I'm sure.

Cheers,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2011, 06:30 PM

This really is a great discussion, and it really helps to have interactive observations to gain key perspective in evaluating a piece. Stephen, I must say I have been remiss in not acknowledging your input here, which has also been most helpful. I am always grateful for your posting these fascinating examples, and admire your willingness to place them here for us to learn from, and hope our observations are helpful in increasing your knowledge.

As Iain has noted, the fact that this is a German made blade, produced by a well known exporter of these times from Solingen, does correspond with the large number of blades found on kaskara throughout the Sudan. Also, as noted, the addition of this poetic verse in inscription was clearly done by a Frenchman and intended for a French sword. This of course suggests that the weapon was apparantly used by a Frenchman, and either the blade was mounted in Europe before arrival in French regions in Africa (as was sometimes done by Clauberg and other Solingen makers) or it was done by an outfitter in Africa furbishing swords intended for French use. There is no reason why such specifically French verse would be placed on a trade blade intended for other parties, and most certainly not on a blade intended for a Sudanese tribesman.

I am not familiar from Rimbaud, nor in fact had I ever heard of him until this thread, however, it does seem his writing was well known, especially probably among military men as he was military himself. Factor that into the established fact that he dealt in weapons in Abyssinia and probably throughout the region, and it does not seem unreasonable that his verse might appear on a French blade used by a Frenchman in these regions.

While it does seem paradoxical that wistful romantic notions would be in the minds of soldiers on campaign, or for that matter, any men far from home and loved ones in places where they are strangers....it is entirely a matter of fact and well known. Todays generations are more familiar with media driven views of machismo, bravado and coarse violence in action movies etc. though anyone who is a true student of martial arts or actually soldiers in service know that discipline, understanding and many more compassionate and humanistic qualities are at the base of thier actions. That too is paradoxical of course, but well known.
Most men who have been soldiers hold deeply these powerful emotions, and are reluctant to reveal them openly, but in those times, and obviously with the French, it is not at all surprising to see popularly known verse of this kind. As noted by Iain, it is not the kind of thing that would be placed on a blade in the field by a French soldier, but very much the kind of thing that when seen by a soldier, would be heartily accepted and used.

All best regards,
Jim

stephen wood · 23rd May 2011, 01:12 PM

...just a note on provenance - I acquired the sword from a dealer who bought it at a sale in the North of England. It was covered in rust and patina. He could see that there was some kind of inscription and partially cleaned it. He had expected the inscription to be in Arabic and was surprised to find what he did.

stephen wood · 13th November 2011, 12:15 AM

...while we're waiting for the splendid Arabic script on another kaskara to be translated: I knew this would turn up eventually...

"Sont-ils perdus,

Ces jours où l'on espère,

Où chacun rêve sa chimère,

Les yeux à l'horizon tendus?

Sont-ils perdus?

En vain on guette dans l'espace

Une âme soeur qui passe,

Sont-ils perdus?"

"Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93)

The sheet music is dated 1868.

regihis · 13th November 2011, 01:23 AM

Emil Ludwig in his book "The Nile" says that the Mahdi and his men wore swords of the time of Charles V during their raids to the Maghreb - French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

Dom · 14th November 2011, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regihis

French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

few chance, to don't said ... hopeless to be in presence of "survivor" of the Middle Ages

the last crusade European was before 1300, and were a mess,
none more later than this date
at this date, the Europeans, have lost ALL their settlements in Middle East
obviously, this sword is not 500 years old, or even the blade

now, I agree with you, if you want to said,
the "Kaskara" (in general) has kept through centuries the style of European swords in Middle-Age

à +

Dom

regihis · 14th November 2011, 07:51 AM

remembering: navigation great until the background had a return of Jerusalem, which I said was that the blade may have been from the invasions of Charles V (1500-1558) to the Maghreb, not me who says it is Emil Ludwig , noting that he lived closer than us in time of the Mahdi

Iain · 13th November 2011, 12:32 PM

Very interesting Stephen. I think this opens up the scope of possibilities again, rather than tying the sword to a known historical figure. Seems like the kind of thing any officer or French merchant could be familiar with. For those curious here's the wikipedia link for the composer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Nadaud

Martin Lubojacky · 13th November 2011, 02:02 PM

Just a small notice to the presence of Kaskara and French presence in the region:
Kaskaras were also used throughout the territory of Eritrea, which is bordering current Sudan - on one side, and former French Somalia - current Djibouti, on the other side. Djibouti, "French port", developped to supplying spot, place, where such swords dealers like Garabedian lived.
Regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2011, 06:27 PM

Well done Stephen!!!
I love it when these threads, especially with these kinds of anomalies come back with new information presented. I agree with Iain, trying to align a weapon directly to a historic figure specifically without documented provenance is usually unlikely, but as Martin has well noted, there are broader and more distinct possibilities in the regions mentioned.

13th November 2011, 12:15 AM	#4
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...while we're waiting for the splendid Arabic script on another kaskara to be translated: I knew this would turn up eventually... "Sont-ils perdus, Ces jours où l'on espère, Où chacun rêve sa chimère, Les yeux à l'horizon tendus? Sont-ils perdus? En vain on guette dans l'espace Une âme soeur qui passe, Sont-ils perdus?" "Jours Perdus", by French chansonnier Gustave Nadaud (1820-93) The sheet music is dated 1868. Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 13th November 2011 at 01:24 AM.

20th May 2011, 09:21 AM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Hi Nicolas, That's what I figured more or less. If only there was a little more to the verses on the sword to tie it to Rimbaud! Might be interesting to see if there's any academics who specialize in his works who might be able to give an opinion if the style fits with Rimbaud? I read that at least some of his letters survive from the period he was in Africa. Otherwise I have to say, the subject matter seems the sort of thing that would be on most solider's minds! Of course how it is expressed is far more eloquent than the average solider would come up with I'm sure. Cheers, Iain

20th May 2011, 06:30 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	This really is a great discussion, and it really helps to have interactive observations to gain key perspective in evaluating a piece. Stephen, I must say I have been remiss in not acknowledging your input here, which has also been most helpful. I am always grateful for your posting these fascinating examples, and admire your willingness to place them here for us to learn from, and hope our observations are helpful in increasing your knowledge. As Iain has noted, the fact that this is a German made blade, produced by a well known exporter of these times from Solingen, does correspond with the large number of blades found on kaskara throughout the Sudan. Also, as noted, the addition of this poetic verse in inscription was clearly done by a Frenchman and intended for a French sword. This of course suggests that the weapon was apparantly used by a Frenchman, and either the blade was mounted in Europe before arrival in French regions in Africa (as was sometimes done by Clauberg and other Solingen makers) or it was done by an outfitter in Africa furbishing swords intended for French use. There is no reason why such specifically French verse would be placed on a trade blade intended for other parties, and most certainly not on a blade intended for a Sudanese tribesman. I am not familiar from Rimbaud, nor in fact had I ever heard of him until this thread, however, it does seem his writing was well known, especially probably among military men as he was military himself. Factor that into the established fact that he dealt in weapons in Abyssinia and probably throughout the region, and it does not seem unreasonable that his verse might appear on a French blade used by a Frenchman in these regions. While it does seem paradoxical that wistful romantic notions would be in the minds of soldiers on campaign, or for that matter, any men far from home and loved ones in places where they are strangers....it is entirely a matter of fact and well known. Todays generations are more familiar with media driven views of machismo, bravado and coarse violence in action movies etc. though anyone who is a true student of martial arts or actually soldiers in service know that discipline, understanding and many more compassionate and humanistic qualities are at the base of thier actions. That too is paradoxical of course, but well known. Most men who have been soldiers hold deeply these powerful emotions, and are reluctant to reveal them openly, but in those times, and obviously with the French, it is not at all surprising to see popularly known verse of this kind. As noted by Iain, it is not the kind of thing that would be placed on a blade in the field by a French soldier, but very much the kind of thing that when seen by a soldier, would be heartily accepted and used. All best regards, Jim

23rd May 2011, 01:12 PM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...just a note on provenance - I acquired the sword from a dealer who bought it at a sale in the North of England. It was covered in rust and patina. He could see that there was some kind of inscription and partially cleaned it. He had expected the inscription to be in Arabic and was surprised to find what he did.

13th November 2011, 01:23 AM	#5
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	Emil Ludwig in his book "The Nile" says that the Mahdi and his men wore swords of the time of Charles V during their raids to the Maghreb - French blade = Crusades? Probably!!!

14th November 2011, 07:51 AM	#7
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	remembering: navigation great until the background had a return of Jerusalem, which I said was that the blade may have been from the invasions of Charles V (1500-1558) to the Maghreb, not me who says it is Emil Ludwig , noting that he lived closer than us in time of the Mahdi

13th November 2011, 12:32 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Very interesting Stephen. I think this opens up the scope of possibilities again, rather than tying the sword to a known historical figure. Seems like the kind of thing any officer or French merchant could be familiar with. For those curious here's the wikipedia link for the composer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Nadaud

13th November 2011, 02:02 PM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Just a small notice to the presence of Kaskara and French presence in the region: Kaskaras were also used throughout the territory of Eritrea, which is bordering current Sudan - on one side, and former French Somalia - current Djibouti, on the other side. Djibouti, "French port", developped to supplying spot, place, where such swords dealers like Garabedian lived. Regards, Martin

13th November 2011, 06:27 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Well done Stephen!!! I love it when these threads, especially with these kinds of anomalies come back with new information presented. I agree with Iain, trying to align a weapon directly to a historic figure specifically without documented provenance is usually unlikely, but as Martin has well noted, there are broader and more distinct possibilities in the regions mentioned.