Small axes for ID

[Atlantia]

Hopefully some better pics (Now I've cleaned them) will be helpful?

I was going to scrub them, but the patina is so deep and dark and old.
It almost seems wrong to take them back to silver metal?

[Tim Simmons]

Very nice.

[Atlantia]

And the shafts (they come off fairly easily and really easily)
One has 'X' wedges, the other nothing.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Very nice.

Thanks mate

You see what I mean though, these are SO distinctive that they have to be a distinct recognisable ethnographic type.

Truth is, I'll be gutted if they are a household item (kindling axe!!)!



Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

Yes Hungarian. Whats wrong with that .

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Yes Hungarian. Whats wrong with that .

I can see the possibility of Eastern European, but I'm struggling to see them as mere 'utility' axes.
My reasoning:
The shape of the cutting edge and narrowness of the blade doesn't make for good kindling splitting.
The smaller of the two doesn't even have a cutting edge thats parallel to the shaft (see pic below)
Despite the simplicity of the punched decoration, these are quite an elaborate piece of metalworking, far more than I would expect from a ulitity piece.

I don't know, perhaps I just hope that you are wrong on that and they are 'battle axes'.

Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

I can see no reason why you could not seriously hurt a person with one.

[M ELEY]

Coming in late on this one with my .2 cents. On many of these early axes, the "hammer" was in fact a counter-weight to the cutting edge. It was the same on colonial American trade axes, native American tomahawks, etc. I don't think these were strictly utility, but like the above mentioned axes, were probably both a tool and a weapon. Their thickened, bearded blades very closely resemble many boarding axes of the period sans spike.(again, a tool and in time of need, a lethal weapon) The patterning, although it could be E. Euro, strikes me as E Indian, so-called Hindi-dot pattern. I've seen somethiong like these on the old defunct tomahawks page. Perhaps I can find the link...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I can see the possibility of Eastern European, but I'm struggling to see them as mere 'utility' axes.
My reasoning:
The shape of the cutting edge and narrowness of the blade doesn't make for good kindling splitting.
The smaller of the two doesn't even have a cutting edge thats parallel to the shaft (see pic below)
Despite the simplicity of the punched decoration, these are quite an elaborate piece of metalworking, far more than I would expect from a ulitity piece.

I don't know, perhaps I just hope that you are wrong on that and they are 'battle axes'.

Best
Gene

Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" !

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" !

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE

Namaste Ibrahiim

I actually do have that book... somewhere..... in a box...... I think...... The V&A one right?
Does it have anything VERY close to mine? If it does, I'll go and search.

The axe in the picture with the seated chap holding it is suprisingly small. You say that they come in different sizes?
It would be interesting to ask a Shihuh user of these axes if they recognise mine!
I don't suppose that you know the gentleman in your picture and could put it to him?


I've found a picture of what appears to be an old Mussandam axe. But I can't find any pictures of the crescent headed Hadhramaut axe that Stuart referenced from Elgood (beyond the one in the aforementioned book).

The evolution of the axe is of course a story far older than recorded history.
When attempting to research my two crescent axes, the amount of references to Sagaris and pictures of ancient painted vases depicting Scythian warriors carrying them did make me smile.
But of course we are not looking so far back (even though I've added some pics of these axes below for fun).
In the great scheme of things, crescent shaped axes are widespread, but a minority.
The shape of the axes in your pictures is perhaps more familiar. The 'usual' shape for many recognised mutipurpose axes, like shepherds axes, tomahawks, even many weaponised axe forms, including european, Indian and Persian.
So I think we need to concentrate on the crescent shaped forms that are a 'match' for mine.


Do you have any further information, references or pictures relating to the Arabic Hadhramaut axe that Stu mentioned above?

Best
Gene