European (Italian?) Dagger

Atlantia · 27th March 2011, 06:40 PM

Similar blade with short fuller:

I would say that this is how your blade started.
Visible fuller length beyond cup/guard on my sword is 10".
I would place the date of the reconstruction to possibly end of the 18thC but more likey early 19thC (as Jim said).
Despite the fact that this is made from a reclaimed blade, I think that it is of rather good quality. The mounts remind me of the Napoleonic era. There is an almost naval dirk look to the whole piece also.
Rather interesting.

Spunjer · 28th March 2011, 01:03 AM

interesting indeed! what's the length of the sword?

Atlantia · 28th March 2011, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

interesting indeed! what's the length of the sword?

Hi Spunjer

It is 41 1/2 " long overall with a 35" blade (visible edge).

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2011, 02:04 AM

Thanks very much Alan for the kind words

Spunjer thanks too, and for adding the additional photos. The pictures Gene added give us exactly the image of how the blade would have looked, and this extremely nice rapier has the 'Sahagun' inscription often used on these Solingen blades. Note the characteristic symbols or sigils that are typically seen in these blades as well, which are added to imbue magical or talismanic properties and as quality guarantees. The exact character of these and attribution cannot with confidence be attributed to particular makers or periods, but certain consistancies seem to exist which are not yet fully documented.

While we know of an early 17th century rapier for a boy with this name on the blade, we do not know exactly the style of the blade. Since this blade seems to correspond to what I believe are Solingen examples of latter 17th century, it seems quite possible this is a Solingen blade using the name.
The possibility that it is in fact a 17th century blade to this maker also remains possible with more evidence supporting the existence of the maker in Italy.
The symbol or sigil that looks like a cursive M may be either an astrological symbol (virgo, scorpio?) or a sigil of undetermined meaning which were often adopted by makers and applied along with these names.

The hilt appears of course to represent the Royal crowns of the United Kingdom not only in its shape as a crown, but the cross pattee, or often considered Tuetonic cross as seen on these crowns....and.below it the shamrock. During and after the Napoleonic Wars the fluer de lis was removed from the Royal coat of arms and typically was present on the crowns. The harp of Ireland was added in the quarter on the arms, and perhaps the shamrock takes the place on the crown as here. For this reason, and the regal theme I think this is an assemblage from the early blade and cast mounts about mid to latter 19th c.
Very nice dagger which has a nice dirk presence to it.

All best regards,
Jim

Spunjer · 28th March 2011, 02:56 PM

thank you for the additional photo, gene, and once again, thank you jim for your esteemed assessment! i'll pass this on to the owner, and i'm sure he'll be more than happy to find out his $125 dollar pick up from a flea market is more than just a "neat dagger".

Atlantia · 28th March 2011, 05:54 PM

You're welcome Spunjer.

Has anyone noticed that the 'ball' ends of the quillions have been 'added on' and aren't original to the crossguard.
Poses several interesting questions.
The first of which is of course, is it a modified court/smallsword hilt?

(discuss)

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2011, 06:45 PM

You bet Spunjer!!! Tell your friend he 'done good!'

Gene, very astute!!! and I had not noticed the terminals might be replaced, nor the distinct indication this could be a smallsword guard. That makes this even more interesting yet, and it seems a lot of work to go to in order to refurbish this piece. To me the suggestion is that it well might have been the components of a valued heirloom sword which was revamped into a most attractive stiletto.

As the smallsword fell out of favor in the 19th century, there was still the attraction of the gentry to romanticized Italian influences, and there would seem to be a strong case for this type situation here.

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 28th March 2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

You bet Spunjer!!! Tell your friend he 'done good!'

Gene, very astute!!! and I had not noticed the terminals might be replaced, nor the distinct indication this could be a smallsword guard. That makes this even more interesting yet, and it seems a lot of work to go to in order to refurbish this piece. To me the suggestion is that it well might have been the components of a valued heirloom sword which was revamped into a most attractive stiletto.

As the smallsword fell out of favor in the 19th century, there was still the attraction of the gentry to romanticized Italian influences, and there would seem to be a strong case for this type situation here.

All the best,
Jim

Thanks mate,
Looks like it was one of the later ones with no finger loops (or small ones). I did wonder if the rapier blade was remounted as a small sword, then got broken and was reincarnated a third time into the dagger?
Possibly too far a stretch

27th March 2011, 06:40 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Similar blade with short fuller: I would say that this is how your blade started. Visible fuller length beyond cup/guard on my sword is 10". I would place the date of the reconstruction to possibly end of the 18thC but more likey early 19thC (as Jim said). Despite the fact that this is made from a reclaimed blade, I think that it is of rather good quality. The mounts remind me of the Napoleonic era. There is an almost naval dirk look to the whole piece also. Rather interesting. Last edited by Atlantia; 27th March 2011 at 11:56 PM.

28th March 2011, 01:03 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	interesting indeed! what's the length of the sword?

28th March 2011, 02:04 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Thanks very much Alan for the kind words Spunjer thanks too, and for adding the additional photos. The pictures Gene added give us exactly the image of how the blade would have looked, and this extremely nice rapier has the 'Sahagun' inscription often used on these Solingen blades. Note the characteristic symbols or sigils that are typically seen in these blades as well, which are added to imbue magical or talismanic properties and as quality guarantees. The exact character of these and attribution cannot with confidence be attributed to particular makers or periods, but certain consistancies seem to exist which are not yet fully documented. While we know of an early 17th century rapier for a boy with this name on the blade, we do not know exactly the style of the blade. Since this blade seems to correspond to what I believe are Solingen examples of latter 17th century, it seems quite possible this is a Solingen blade using the name. The possibility that it is in fact a 17th century blade to this maker also remains possible with more evidence supporting the existence of the maker in Italy. The symbol or sigil that looks like a cursive M may be either an astrological symbol (virgo, scorpio?) or a sigil of undetermined meaning which were often adopted by makers and applied along with these names. The hilt appears of course to represent the Royal crowns of the United Kingdom not only in its shape as a crown, but the cross pattee, or often considered Tuetonic cross as seen on these crowns....and.below it the shamrock. During and after the Napoleonic Wars the fluer de lis was removed from the Royal coat of arms and typically was present on the crowns. The harp of Ireland was added in the quarter on the arms, and perhaps the shamrock takes the place on the crown as here. For this reason, and the regal theme I think this is an assemblage from the early blade and cast mounts about mid to latter 19th c. Very nice dagger which has a nice dirk presence to it. All best regards, Jim

28th March 2011, 02:56 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thank you for the additional photo, gene, and once again, thank you jim for your esteemed assessment! i'll pass this on to the owner, and i'm sure he'll be more than happy to find out his $125 dollar pick up from a flea market is more than just a "neat dagger".

28th March 2011, 05:54 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	You're welcome Spunjer. Has anyone noticed that the 'ball' ends of the quillions have been 'added on' and aren't original to the crossguard. Poses several interesting questions. The first of which is of course, is it a modified court/smallsword hilt? (discuss)

28th March 2011, 06:45 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	You bet Spunjer!!! Tell your friend he 'done good!' Gene, very astute!!! and I had not noticed the terminals might be replaced, nor the distinct indication this could be a smallsword guard. That makes this even more interesting yet, and it seems a lot of work to go to in order to refurbish this piece. To me the suggestion is that it well might have been the components of a valued heirloom sword which was revamped into a most attractive stiletto. As the smallsword fell out of favor in the 19th century, there was still the attraction of the gentry to romanticized Italian influences, and there would seem to be a strong case for this type situation here. All the best, Jim