Afghan Shashkas

ham · 29th June 2005, 05:54 AM

B.I.,

Glad to know someone has these books. I was referring to plate 342 in Moser showing the secondary form of Bukhara sabers, in my copy the pages with plates are not numbered hence I used that number but neglected to label it as such, sorry.
Thanks for taking time to post the images, very kind indeed.

Sincerely,

Ham

ausjulius · 16th July 2006, 07:34 PM

hello from the caucasus,,

ok.. firstly,,
about the phisical size thing...
caucascian people generaly are not very larg or muscualr,, as all people living in high altetudes there genetics tend to keep the short, and slim,
mostly the men and women are of a similar height,
as the laqnd levels out the people tend to be taller,,
the average male height would be maybe 5 foot 7 or so,,
some are much bigger and some are much shorter,
the wrestling comes not from size but from the large interest in wrestling and the large amount of locals enguaged in the sport,, hence the state even now in cash strapped times premots competitions in wrestling teakwondo , judo and other martial sports,,

the wilder folk of the caucasus,, seem to be of a quite mixed ethnicity,, but the more settled people , armenians , georgians , aziris , seem to be mostly ethnicly homogenius,
mostly the south caucascians seem to be orientials,, as people in persia and turkey , and greece and the middle east..
while the north caucascians seem to be another ethnic group, or mix of ethnic groups ,
some of the lowland people are decended from the mongols and other central asian and siberian invaders, some are natives to the area, others are decended from indoeuropean groups who invaded the area 3000 years ago,,

the afgans seem to me , form seeing many to be also a not very large folk, although the european ones,, , by european i mean they look as europeans , blond or brown hair and such, seem on par with europeans in size , although thinner,,

in afghansitan and other areas in persian ans such for along time there has been a presence of both russians and at times caucascians,, either trading things , or as mercenaries,
the making of shashkas in central asia predates the russian invasions , and no doubt originates form contact with caucascians , you must remember that dagestan is only seperated form central asia by the caspian sea,,
also before the russian invasions there was immergtration to central asia , by russians , tatars,, and also by peoples atwar with imperial russia, some of there were causcians , but many were nogai , mongol peoples living in sothern russia,, most were exsterminated buy the russians ,, the only remaining group in in north dagestan and north east chechnya,, many of the nogai immergarted central asia , many setteling in uzbekistan ,
and assimilating in with the locals, also the kalmykis , living in sothern russia came under prusser and many immergrated back to centra asia,,
although many stayed behind ,, in what is now kalmykya,
these people all used one form or another of the caucascian shashka,
to this day there is tatars in both china and afghanistan ,,
these weapons were introduced by these migrations , hence there was shashkas made in egypt,, jordan , turkey, serbia, east turkmenistan (occpied in the 50s by china)
central asia, iran,, ect ect ,
the central asian and afghan shashkas are more heaverly bladed than the caucascian ones , this is for afew reasons,,
one is the technique used in combat,, another is the change in combat in the caucasus,,
afghanistan and cantral asia amour was still common in the 19th centuary, but in the causasus due to heavy fighting wiht the russians it was discarded as being unweildly, earily shashkas have much heavier balades and are generaly longer,
the traditional caucascian shashka has the handle going into the sheath , like on a finnish pukko knife,,
only the russian made shashkas have the handle on the outside, this was for perade and dress perpouses ,a nd because it looked better when hung on the wall,
these swords are made in zlatoust or tula in siberia,,
most cossaks used the caucascian form with the handle going into the sheath , the afghan swords derived from the caucascian not russian style,
many caucascian metla workers worked in centralasia in the 19th centuary and many immergrated to live in some of the majoir cities,,

ariel · 16th July 2006, 11:28 PM

Welcome to the Forum, Ausjulius!
Over here we have plenty of people interested in SE Asian weapons, but the Caucasian field is rather underpopulated. Glad to see another "Shashka Maniac".
Your points are very well taken and in agreement with the older sources. Hope to see your contributions more often.
Do you collect Caucasian/ Central Asian weapons?
We would all very much like to see your toys.

ariel · 17th July 2006, 02:31 PM

You are all correct, of course, to note the more ancient penetrations of Caucasian weapon traditions into Central Asia. The old Uzbeki swords are very reminescent of Shashkas, but there is a crucial difference: the "eared" pommels appear later in the development. This was, most likely, the most direct influence of the Caucasian Shashka (in it's Russian Imperial Cossack mutation) on the Central Asian swords. That's what I was talking about and these are the examples I showed. Lebedynsky calls them Pseudo-shashkas not for nothing!

I would love to get my hands on a really old Uzbeki sword, both in it's Shamshir and Shashka -like varieties, but to call them rare would be an understatement of the century: most were destroyed by the Russians when they occupied Central Asia first in the 1860-70s and when they suppressed the nationalist Basmach movement in the 1920s.

spiral · 17th July 2006, 04:54 PM

Fascinating pieces Ariel,

You mention thier size, What actual weights, dimensions & point of balance are they?

Thankyou.

Spiral

ausjulius · 18th July 2006, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

You are all correct, of course, to note the more ancient penetrations of Caucasian weapon traditions into Central Asia. The old Uzbeki swords are very reminescent of Shashkas, but there is a crucial difference: the "eared" pommels appear later in the development. This was, most likely, the most direct influence of the Caucasian Shashka (in it's Russian Imperial Cossack mutation) on the Central Asian swords. That's what I was talking about and these are the examples I showed. Lebedynsky calls them Pseudo-shashkas not for nothing!

I would love to get my hands on a really old Uzbeki sword, both in it's Shamshir and Shashka -like varieties, but to call them rare would be an understatement of the century: most were destroyed by the Russians when they occupied Central Asia first in the 1860-70s and when they suppressed the nationalist Basmach movement in the 1920s.

hi , there was actualy an uzbek site that pictured many old uzbek weaponry,, i think it was some form of government site,,
it had some pictures of uzbek amour and swords, including several older shashkas,,
some rather broad and curved in the blade, almost like some of the mongol and tarta swords,,
handles lookde as wood or horn, riveted,,
actualy in centeral asia these tiems are not that uncommon , , just hard to find , there is not much antiques bussiness in these areas , some amny times these items are kept in peopels homes, and many times not properly cared for,, or they are in huge state stokpiles of museam articles,,
ive seen some uzbek sheilds and lances for sale,, looked as greek style almost,, round and painted with emblems,, nicely made,, and good condition for there age,, which makes suspect theft form a museam ...

ariel · 18th July 2006, 11:01 AM

Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?

ausjulius · 18th July 2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?

hi , ill see if i can find it , it was about 4 years ago i saw it .... theres not many actualy ,, i know of some government type ethnic folk art pages,, ill see what i can find , ok,,

ausjulius · 18th July 2006, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Welcome to the Forum, Ausjulius!
Over here we have plenty of people interested in SE Asian weapons, but the Caucasian field is rather underpopulated. Glad to see another "Shashka Maniac".
Your points are very well taken and in agreement with the older sources. Hope to see your contributions more often.
Do you collect Caucasian/ Central Asian weapons?
We would all very much like to see your toys.

hi thanks , i work in dagsetan in the factory, "KIZLYAR" situated in the city of kizlayr in northen dagestan , i am the "technical advisor" basicly the odd jobs guy,
we are the largest producter of hunting knives in russia , and we are, i think the largest single producer of damascus knives in the world,

we make damasucs swords, art knives pocket knives , ect ect ,we also have a nother department in st petersburg making european and russian style knives and swords,

i have afew, but havent been able to idulge my interest in collecting antiques, to much time dealing with new ones,,
in the capital mahachkahla there is amny antique shops selling weaponry , old pistols, swords, form dagestna and russia and other places, some have quite heigh prices, others quite decent , i saw a bulat kard blade for 500 rubles once :0 should have taken it ... ill post some pics later,, i may be in the capital soon and can take fotos of the museam , they have many very rare swords , including several dagestani zurkas, two bladed swords ,
they also have a very finely made shashka from kubachi, im told it is one of the finest condition and quality shashkas made in dagestan,
also i think some blades made form machine needled , making a very interesting pattern,
in kizlyar we have a small museam with some weaponry also,,

my personal facination is mongolian and other nomad waeponry ,kazakhstan ,kirgiz,, ect ect.. but its quite rare , the tarta and other uralic and siberian people also have fine swords

29th June 2005, 05:54 AM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	B.I., Glad to know someone has these books. I was referring to plate 342 in Moser showing the secondary form of Bukhara sabers, in my copy the pages with plates are not numbered hence I used that number but neglected to label it as such, sorry. Thanks for taking time to post the images, very kind indeed. Sincerely, Ham

16th July 2006, 07:34 PM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 454	hello from the caucasus,, ok.. firstly,, about the phisical size thing... caucascian people generaly are not very larg or muscualr,, as all people living in high altetudes there genetics tend to keep the short, and slim, mostly the men and women are of a similar height, as the laqnd levels out the people tend to be taller,, the average male height would be maybe 5 foot 7 or so,, some are much bigger and some are much shorter, the wrestling comes not from size but from the large interest in wrestling and the large amount of locals enguaged in the sport,, hence the state even now in cash strapped times premots competitions in wrestling teakwondo , judo and other martial sports,, the wilder folk of the caucasus,, seem to be of a quite mixed ethnicity,, but the more settled people , armenians , georgians , aziris , seem to be mostly ethnicly homogenius, mostly the south caucascians seem to be orientials,, as people in persia and turkey , and greece and the middle east.. while the north caucascians seem to be another ethnic group, or mix of ethnic groups , some of the lowland people are decended from the mongols and other central asian and siberian invaders, some are natives to the area, others are decended from indoeuropean groups who invaded the area 3000 years ago,, the afgans seem to me , form seeing many to be also a not very large folk, although the european ones,, , by european i mean they look as europeans , blond or brown hair and such, seem on par with europeans in size , although thinner,, in afghansitan and other areas in persian ans such for along time there has been a presence of both russians and at times caucascians,, either trading things , or as mercenaries, the making of shashkas in central asia predates the russian invasions , and no doubt originates form contact with caucascians , you must remember that dagestan is only seperated form central asia by the caspian sea,, also before the russian invasions there was immergtration to central asia , by russians , tatars,, and also by peoples atwar with imperial russia, some of there were causcians , but many were nogai , mongol peoples living in sothern russia,, most were exsterminated buy the russians ,, the only remaining group in in north dagestan and north east chechnya,, many of the nogai immergarted central asia , many setteling in uzbekistan , and assimilating in with the locals, also the kalmykis , living in sothern russia came under prusser and many immergrated back to centra asia,, although many stayed behind ,, in what is now kalmykya, these people all used one form or another of the caucascian shashka, to this day there is tatars in both china and afghanistan ,, these weapons were introduced by these migrations , hence there was shashkas made in egypt,, jordan , turkey, serbia, east turkmenistan (occpied in the 50s by china) central asia, iran,, ect ect , the central asian and afghan shashkas are more heaverly bladed than the caucascian ones , this is for afew reasons,, one is the technique used in combat,, another is the change in combat in the caucasus,, afghanistan and cantral asia amour was still common in the 19th centuary, but in the causasus due to heavy fighting wiht the russians it was discarded as being unweildly, earily shashkas have much heavier balades and are generaly longer, the traditional caucascian shashka has the handle going into the sheath , like on a finnish pukko knife,, only the russian made shashkas have the handle on the outside, this was for perade and dress perpouses ,a nd because it looked better when hung on the wall, these swords are made in zlatoust or tula in siberia,, most cossaks used the caucascian form with the handle going into the sheath , the afghan swords derived from the caucascian not russian style, many caucascian metla workers worked in centralasia in the 19th centuary and many immergrated to live in some of the majoir cities,,

16th July 2006, 11:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Welcome to the Forum, Ausjulius! Over here we have plenty of people interested in SE Asian weapons, but the Caucasian field is rather underpopulated. Glad to see another "Shashka Maniac". Your points are very well taken and in agreement with the older sources. Hope to see your contributions more often. Do you collect Caucasian/ Central Asian weapons? We would all very much like to see your toys.

17th July 2006, 02:31 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are all correct, of course, to note the more ancient penetrations of Caucasian weapon traditions into Central Asia. The old Uzbeki swords are very reminescent of Shashkas, but there is a crucial difference: the "eared" pommels appear later in the development. This was, most likely, the most direct influence of the Caucasian Shashka (in it's Russian Imperial Cossack mutation) on the Central Asian swords. That's what I was talking about and these are the examples I showed. Lebedynsky calls them Pseudo-shashkas not for nothing! I would love to get my hands on a really old Uzbeki sword, both in it's Shamshir and Shashka -like varieties, but to call them rare would be an understatement of the century: most were destroyed by the Russians when they occupied Central Asia first in the 1860-70s and when they suppressed the nationalist Basmach movement in the 1920s.

17th July 2006, 04:54 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Fascinating pieces Ariel, You mention thier size, What actual weights, dimensions & point of balance are they? Thankyou. Spiral

18th July 2006, 11:01 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?