Afghan Shashkas

ariel · 26th June 2005, 08:42 PM

To be continued:
Here is a typical very old Circassian shashka between her two Uzbek cousins.
Notice the size difference: Caucasians valued their weapons light and relatively small. I heard the theory that this was due to geography (mountainous and restricted Caucasus vs. open steppes and deserts of Central Asia). I doubt it: there are tons of mountains in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan and one does not need a horizon-wide view to wield a bigger blade. Another hypothesis was the heavy physique of the Central Asians. That is also not likely: one should just see the Chechens, Georgians and the rest of them. These buggers filled half of the Soviet national wrestling team!!
But the handles are very different: almost cylinrical with semicircular "ears" in the case of the Caucasian shashka vs. widened toward the "pommel" that is also quite elongated. Very easy to distinguish.

ariel · 26th June 2005, 08:46 PM

And the last one: a very old one and quite crude.
However, look at the distal part of the blade: it narrows almost in a bayonet-like fashion. This is very similar to some Tatar sabers, especially the excavated ones. Perhaps, it is a trait common to old Mongolian blades.

Rivkin · 27th June 2005, 01:29 AM

Thank you very much for showing them to us ! I'll be honest - most of the things people show here have lots of gold and silver, and koftgari this and scabbard that, but I really love to see such simple and functional weapons, as these ones.

I'm terribly sorry for saying such things by memory, with no citations, but:

a. Georgian mecenaries have been in Afghanistan since late XVII century, so there can be another source for shashkas being brought to Afghanistan.

b. I think most of caucasian nations had their copies of a mongolian "armor-piercing" point, but I've never seen it in shashka mounts - only in sabre-style mounts. Thank you very much for sharing it with us !

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2005, 03:19 AM

Ariel,
Outstanding display of these fascinating variations of shashkas!! It seems these are seldom ever seen in collections, and there is little on them in most books except Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Orientales" (pp.75-76).
It seems that the Afghans were typically rather large in comparison to most ethnic groups in these regions, so the huge size of these sabres is not surprising. These really are most impressive.

I think it is interesting how the Mongol influence is reflected in the blade features, the peak on the armor piercing point and the almost vestigial yelman on the other.

Thank you so much for posting these together so the comparisons can be seen and the key features on the Afghan examples shown.

It seems to me that Georgia, one of the key regions of the Caucusus, is not typically associated with using the shashka, except for the distinctly identified Mingrelian versions with dramatically canted hilts (anybody out there have a photo of one of these with the skirted scabbard?)

Do you know of Georgian examples of the traditional shashka form and is there any particular identifying characteristic about them?

Once again Ariel, thank you for sharing these excellent examples !!!

All the best,
Jim

Rivkin · 27th June 2005, 03:59 AM

I really don't know how Afgans got their shashkas, so I shoud've just listened, but here is an example of a georgian shashka:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=georgian

Concerning why caucasian shashkas were so light what I was told is that since the first time one would use his shashka would most likely be at a competition - chopping rugs, folded a few times, and so on, one had to buy a weapon that was not only usable in combat, but was also competitions-ready.

During competitions it was considered a bad tone to use heavy shashkas, because it was showing that the owner has no skill, but relies entirely on the blade's mass.

Concerning powerful caucasian physique - I think it's more nurture than nature, and all nations that live in physically challenging environment (whether it's wrestling-loving parents, or it's simply a tough medieaval life). Genetically southern caucasian haplotype EU9 is shared by nations that are known not be body-builders by a very long shot.

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2005, 05:07 AM

Hi Kirill,
I guess I could have worded that better

What I meant was not that Georgians did not use shashkas, but the only Georgian form I've seen is the strange sharply canted and hooked pommel type referred to as 'Mingrelian'. These are extremely rare and I've seen them in illustrations, but I hadn't seen a standard form shashka attributed to Georgia. Obviously if everyone else in all the surrounding regions adopted the shashka they must have had them as well.Thank you for posting the link to that thread.

Good observations on the physique perspective and interesting notes on the heft of the Caucasian shashkas, these guys were incredible swordsmen and its fascinating to hear about these competitions.
All the best,
Jim

ham · 27th June 2005, 05:58 PM

Gentlemen,

Other than a passing similarity, I don't believe there is any formal relationship between the shashka and these Afghan sabers. Rather, they are very late 19th century developments based upon Central Asian, specifically Bukharan, weapons. Most of them were assembled at Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal, thus the high percentage of blades struck with this mark (I think Jim went into detail on this in another thread a few days ago.)
What took place was a three-tiered evolution-- and what we are seeing in the images above is the final one. See T. Flindt's article in Elgood's Islamic Arms and Armour on Bukharan arms p. 21-23 for the first form-- the grips were adapted to a relatively light saber blade directly from the pesh qabz and were made of horn, ivory, actively grained or burled wood and in some cases, jade. They were attached to the tang with 5 large rivets. In the second form, the grips became narrower, the ears more arched and the ferrule was made in metal, usually silver-- this shows influence from a particular variant of kard-grips used in N. India. Blades of this form tend to be lighter than in the first. The Moser Collection contains several examples of this type, see Orientalische Sammlung Henri Moser Charlottenfels p. 342. They are often richly decorated; some in the Ermitaj, St. Petersburg are gilded and paved with turquoises.
The final evolution is the Afghan military design based on the latter, virtually always gripped in the same tough but plain wood from which gunstocks were cut. Mounts tend to be plain iron though occasionally one finds engraved silver as in the image above-- in no example of which I am aware do these engraved motifs approximate those usually found on shashkas in the slightest-- they are typically Afghan. Sabers with pommels which duplicate those found on shashkas appear to date to the last period of production 1890s- 1920s when there would have been ample opportunity to copy them directly, however this factor did not contribute to the evolution of the form. Another saber of this type which directly emulates a shashka is in the Linden Ethnographic Museum, Stuttgart. It was copied inch by inch from a shashka down to the belt with small silver fittings but is not to my knowledge published.

Sincerely,

Ham

Rivkin · 27th June 2005, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Kirill,
I guess I could have worded that better

What I meant was not that Georgians did not use shashkas, but the only Georgian form I've seen is the strange sharply canted and hooked pommel type referred to as 'Mingrelian'. These are extremely rare and I've seen them in illustrations, but I hadn't seen a standard form shashka attributed to Georgia. Obviously if everyone else in all the surrounding regions adopted the shashka they must have had them as well.Thank you for posting the link to that thread.

While I think that in the presence of such experts as you and ariel I probably should not voice my opinion, if I think about the same megrelians "shashka" you think about, then:

There are two types - one is megrelian palash and another one is a "skirted" palash-sabre ?

AFAIK megrelian palash is extremely rare because it was a weapon of distinction, and very often was not even designed for combat. For example, Dadiani-Murat's sword has a hilt going at nearly 90 degrees to the blade (it's obviously impossible to use this sword).

Concerning the skirted version, it looks so cute

on pictures, but I've never seen one in reality.

26th June 2005, 08:42 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	To be continued: Here is a typical very old Circassian shashka between her two Uzbek cousins. Notice the size difference: Caucasians valued their weapons light and relatively small. I heard the theory that this was due to geography (mountainous and restricted Caucasus vs. open steppes and deserts of Central Asia). I doubt it: there are tons of mountains in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan and one does not need a horizon-wide view to wield a bigger blade. Another hypothesis was the heavy physique of the Central Asians. That is also not likely: one should just see the Chechens, Georgians and the rest of them. These buggers filled half of the Soviet national wrestling team!! But the handles are very different: almost cylinrical with semicircular "ears" in the case of the Caucasian shashka vs. widened toward the "pommel" that is also quite elongated. Very easy to distinguish. Attached Images

26th June 2005, 08:46 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And the last one: a very old one and quite crude. However, look at the distal part of the blade: it narrows almost in a bayonet-like fashion. This is very similar to some Tatar sabers, especially the excavated ones. Perhaps, it is a trait common to old Mongolian blades. Attached Images

27th June 2005, 05:58 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Other than a passing similarity, I don't believe there is any formal relationship between the shashka and these Afghan sabers. Rather, they are very late 19th century developments based upon Central Asian, specifically Bukharan, weapons. Most of them were assembled at Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal, thus the high percentage of blades struck with this mark (I think Jim went into detail on this in another thread a few days ago.) What took place was a three-tiered evolution-- and what we are seeing in the images above is the final one. See T. Flindt's article in Elgood's Islamic Arms and Armour on Bukharan arms p. 21-23 for the first form-- the grips were adapted to a relatively light saber blade directly from the pesh qabz and were made of horn, ivory, actively grained or burled wood and in some cases, jade. They were attached to the tang with 5 large rivets. In the second form, the grips became narrower, the ears more arched and the ferrule was made in metal, usually silver-- this shows influence from a particular variant of kard-grips used in N. India. Blades of this form tend to be lighter than in the first. The Moser Collection contains several examples of this type, see Orientalische Sammlung Henri Moser Charlottenfels p. 342. They are often richly decorated; some in the Ermitaj, St. Petersburg are gilded and paved with turquoises. The final evolution is the Afghan military design based on the latter, virtually always gripped in the same tough but plain wood from which gunstocks were cut. Mounts tend to be plain iron though occasionally one finds engraved silver as in the image above-- in no example of which I am aware do these engraved motifs approximate those usually found on shashkas in the slightest-- they are typically Afghan. Sabers with pommels which duplicate those found on shashkas appear to date to the last period of production 1890s- 1920s when there would have been ample opportunity to copy them directly, however this factor did not contribute to the evolution of the form. Another saber of this type which directly emulates a shashka is in the Linden Ethnographic Museum, Stuttgart. It was copied inch by inch from a shashka down to the belt with small silver fittings but is not to my knowledge published. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 27th June 2005 at 06:16 PM.

27th June 2005, 01:29 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much for showing them to us ! I'll be honest - most of the things people show here have lots of gold and silver, and koftgari this and scabbard that, but I really love to see such simple and functional weapons, as these ones. I'm terribly sorry for saying such things by memory, with no citations, but: a. Georgian mecenaries have been in Afghanistan since late XVII century, so there can be another source for shashkas being brought to Afghanistan. b. I think most of caucasian nations had their copies of a mongolian "armor-piercing" point, but I've never seen it in shashka mounts - only in sabre-style mounts. Thank you very much for sharing it with us !

27th June 2005, 03:19 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel, Outstanding display of these fascinating variations of shashkas!! It seems these are seldom ever seen in collections, and there is little on them in most books except Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Orientales" (pp.75-76). It seems that the Afghans were typically rather large in comparison to most ethnic groups in these regions, so the huge size of these sabres is not surprising. These really are most impressive. I think it is interesting how the Mongol influence is reflected in the blade features, the peak on the armor piercing point and the almost vestigial yelman on the other. Thank you so much for posting these together so the comparisons can be seen and the key features on the Afghan examples shown. It seems to me that Georgia, one of the key regions of the Caucusus, is not typically associated with using the shashka, except for the distinctly identified Mingrelian versions with dramatically canted hilts (anybody out there have a photo of one of these with the skirted scabbard?) Do you know of Georgian examples of the traditional shashka form and is there any particular identifying characteristic about them? Once again Ariel, thank you for sharing these excellent examples !!! All the best, Jim

27th June 2005, 03:59 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I really don't know how Afgans got their shashkas, so I shoud've just listened, but here is an example of a georgian shashka: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=georgian Concerning why caucasian shashkas were so light what I was told is that since the first time one would use his shashka would most likely be at a competition - chopping rugs, folded a few times, and so on, one had to buy a weapon that was not only usable in combat, but was also competitions-ready. During competitions it was considered a bad tone to use heavy shashkas, because it was showing that the owner has no skill, but relies entirely on the blade's mass. Concerning powerful caucasian physique - I think it's more nurture than nature, and all nations that live in physically challenging environment (whether it's wrestling-loving parents, or it's simply a tough medieaval life). Genetically southern caucasian haplotype EU9 is shared by nations that are known not be body-builders by a very long shot.

27th June 2005, 05:07 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Kirill, I guess I could have worded that better What I meant was not that Georgians did not use shashkas, but the only Georgian form I've seen is the strange sharply canted and hooked pommel type referred to as 'Mingrelian'. These are extremely rare and I've seen them in illustrations, but I hadn't seen a standard form shashka attributed to Georgia. Obviously if everyone else in all the surrounding regions adopted the shashka they must have had them as well.Thank you for posting the link to that thread. Good observations on the physique perspective and interesting notes on the heft of the Caucasian shashkas, these guys were incredible swordsmen and its fascinating to hear about these competitions. All the best, Jim