Kaskara from Darfur

colin henshaw · 12th January 2011, 01:20 PM

Very nice kaskara....

DaveS · 13th January 2011, 04:12 AM

I need a translation, if possible............Dave.

Dom · 13th January 2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I need a translation, if possible............Dave.

YES ... if possible

my sweet translator has a print out of the pic, and she's facing some difficulties
- hand engraving (not too good) in old arabic
- short part of a poem
- here in France, we don't have a computer with Arabic system, the search is much more complicated
- might be our answer 'll be doubtful, unfortunatly

à +

Dom

katana · 13th January 2011, 02:30 PM

Hi Dave,
congrats....nice Kaskara. Are there any makers marks near the hilt ? The diamond patterning is similar to one of mine.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kaskara

Kind Regards David

DaveS · 13th January 2011, 09:53 PM

Hi David: No, unfortunately there are no makers marks or any other marks of
any kind except the script. The blade is 35 inches long with a single wide
fuller extending the full length to the tip. The blade is also very flexible. Even
though there are no makers marks i believe it to probably be German made,
based on the quality of the blade. I have nothing to base this on other than
a hunch.
We bought this sword over twenty years ago. The scabbard is of the
highest quality that one usually sees with this type of handle and blade, but
unfortunately the main carry strap is in bad shape. The main reason that we
trying to get a translation is because an arab historian that we took this sword to told us that one side translated to being the geneolgy of Ali Dinar.
At the time, this meant nothing to us, but now knowing a little bit of the
history of the area it is much more meaningfull. The other side of the blade
he was not able to translate but since then another person said that it
reads as follows "WHEN THEY RIDE ON THE BACKS OF THEIR HORSES THEY
ARE EXTREMELY DETERMINED AND COURAGES".
This Historian then offered us a large amount of money for the sword,
which basically blew us away. I don't know if this is an Ali Dinar sword or
not. I think you people here might have some insight in helping us identify
more about this sword...........Dave and Lonna.

katana · 14th January 2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

Hi David:
......... The main reason that we
trying to get a translation is because an arab historian that we took this sword to told us that one side translated to being the geneolgy of Ali Dinar.
At the time, this meant nothing to us, but now knowing a little bit of the
history of the area it is much more meaningfull. The other side of the blade
he was not able to translate but since then another person said that it
reads as follows "WHEN THEY RIDE ON THE BACKS OF THEIR HORSES THEY
ARE EXTREMELY DETERMINED AND COURAGES".
This Historian then offered us a large amount of money for the sword,
which basically blew us away. I don't know if this is an Ali Dinar sword or
not. I think you people here might have some insight in helping us identify
more about this sword...........Dave and Lonna.

Hi Dave and Lonna,
the possible Ali Dinar association with this sword would indeed be great news. The diamond design seems unusual on Kaskara hilts. With the provenanced sword at Durham University (in the linked thread) having the diamond motif. Yours, with the diamond patterning and hopefully, a genuine engraving attributable to Ali Dinar' family ....makes mine even more likely to be from the court of Ali Dinar ....or family.

Hopefully, more research/information on this 'diamond design' may help to 'cement' this association.

Kind Regards David

DaveS · 14th January 2011, 03:56 AM

David: Yes, it would be great if we could finally attribute this kaskara to
Ali Dinar. We have at least three more silver-hilted kaskaras that we hope-
fully will be able to post in the future. Two of the three have european
blades that are layered damascus. Another kaskara has one end of it,s
crossguard engraved backwards "Ali" with a date of i think 1896 though i'm
not sure of the exact date. It was used to seal important documents with
sealing wax..........Dave

Rumpel · 23rd January 2011, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Dave and Lonna,
the possible Ali Dinar association with this sword would indeed be great news. The diamond design seems unusual on Kaskara hilts. With the provenanced sword at Durham University (in the linked thread) having the diamond motif. Yours, with the diamond patterning and hopefully, a genuine engraving attributable to Ali Dinar' family ....makes mine even more likely to be from the court of Ali Dinar ....or family.

Hopefully, more research/information on this 'diamond design' may help to 'cement' this association.

Kind Regards David

Hi David,

Did you get any further with Durham? I should add that their Ali Dinar kaskara is probably the best provenenanced, in that it was donated by the alumnus who shot him (or more realistically, oversaw his shooting)...

Dom · 16th January 2011, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I need a translation, if possible............Dave.

at least ... here we are

we got it

sorry for delay, but we found who wrote that poem, and we offer you not a translation, because ... how to translate a poetic spirit ... ??

....
but what could be the sense of the verses
"the seat of the rider on the back of his horse is stable,
without regard to the fury and cries of his enemies,
and he did not need to be fastened"

the writter; El Iman Al Busiri,
born ° 620 Hegir,
he is accepted to be an Egyptian from Upper Egypt with Berber origins (Morocco),
he was in charge for a mosquee (title of "Iman")

ref according with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qa%E1%B...%ABda_al-Burda

à +

Dom

Edster · 16th January 2011, 09:07 PM

Attached is a photo of a sword stylistically similiar, but not of the quality of Daves. I believe the blade is European due to the makes mark barely ledgable. I have a photo of another example given to a Mr. Shangiti (a famous schalor and jurist) and that is a close cousin to the Daves with similiar tassel and diamond motif grip. in a library dedicated to him at the University of Kartoum. There are six swords in the "Shangiti Collection" in his library in 1884. Sorry I don't currently have access to these photographs to illustrate.

The diamond motif of Daves sword is said to have originated at Atbara on the Nile below Khartoum. The Nile Arabised tribes were the most sophisticated and prosperious and were at odds to the Mahdi and the Khalifa who were from the western provinces.

My guess on Daves sword is that it was produced and decorated at Atbara as a presentational piece. It may have in fact been gifted to Ali Dinar, but I don't think it originated in Darfur.

Best regards,
Ed

DaveS · 17th January 2011, 02:28 AM

Dom: Thank you very much for that translation. It does differ slightly from
what we were told originally, but the gist of the meaning was similar. Has
anyone had any luck with the other inscription........Dave.

Dom · 18th January 2011, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

anyone had any luck with the other inscription........Dave.

not a genealogy as I read it, just his name according with Arabic I.D. record
name (Mohamed al Fadl) + father name (Zakaria) + Grand-father name (Ali Dinar)
this way of recording the people is still yet applicable in almost of Middle-East countries, indeed Egypt or Sudan

the obverse of the poem gives
the Sultan Ali Dinar son of Sultan Zakaria son of Sultan Mohamed al-Fadl

the second pic,
1st lign, beginning word unknown, then
Sultan Ali Dinar
2nd lign
the Sultan son of the Sultan Zakariya

Darfur

[Darfur Sultanate flag to 1916]

Sultans
1603 - 1637 Suleiman Solong
1637 - 1682 Musa ibn Suleiman
1682 - 1722 Ahmad Bakr ibn Musa
1722 - 1732 Muhammad I Dawra
1732 - 1739 Umar Lele
1739 - 1756 Abu´l Kasim
1756 - 1785 Muhammad II Tairab
1785 - 1799 `Abd ar-Rahman ar-Rashid
1799 - 1839 Muhammad III al-Fadl
1839 - Apr 1873 Muhammad IV al-Husayn
1839 - 1843 Muhammad Abu Madyan (in rebellion)
21 Apr 1873 - 23 Oct 1874 Ibrahim Qarad Koyko
1874 - Hasab Allah
1874 - 1875 Sayf ad-Din Bush
1877 - 1880 Sayf ad-Din Muhammad Harun ar-Rashid
1880 - 1887 `Abd Allah Dud Banja
1887 - 14 Feb 1888 Yusuf
1888 - 1898 Abu´l Khayrat
1891 - 1908 Sanin al-Husayn (in rebellion)

Emir
21 Mar 1899 - 22 May 1916 `Ali Dinar ibn Zakariyya (b. c.1865 - d. 1916)

************************************

see also this link

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot...sp?lot_id=PXT2
the matter is .... sale for "A silver-mounted sword of Sultan Ali Dinar"
[group of swords, numbering less than ten recorded examples, which were made for the Sultan himself.
They have been described as 'the last truly distinctive commissions of Islamic edged weapons' (Paris 1988, p.147)]
question ... ??? yours, ist's one of the tenth ???

Sudanese warrior from that period

à +

Dom

DaveS · 18th January 2011, 03:22 AM

Dom: Again, thank you very much for your work in translating these inscrip-
tions. I wonder if there would be any information in any books on Islamic
arms regarding the two pieces of chain mail on the tassels. The man that
did the first translations had said that these represented to recent births
in the owners family. There's never been anything iv'e ever read that refers
to a practice like this. Has anyone ever heard of this..........Dave.

16th January 2011, 09:07 PM	#10
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Attached is a photo of a sword stylistically similiar, but not of the quality of Daves. I believe the blade is European due to the makes mark barely ledgable. I have a photo of another example given to a Mr. Shangiti (a famous schalor and jurist) and that is a close cousin to the Daves with similiar tassel and diamond motif grip. in a library dedicated to him at the University of Kartoum. There are six swords in the "Shangiti Collection" in his library in 1884. Sorry I don't currently have access to these photographs to illustrate. The diamond motif of Daves sword is said to have originated at Atbara on the Nile below Khartoum. The Nile Arabised tribes were the most sophisticated and prosperious and were at odds to the Mahdi and the Khalifa who were from the western provinces. My guess on Daves sword is that it was produced and decorated at Atbara as a presentational piece. It may have in fact been gifted to Ali Dinar, but I don't think it originated in Darfur. Best regards, Ed Attached Images

12th January 2011, 01:20 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Very nice kaskara....

13th January 2011, 04:12 AM	#2
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	I need a translation, if possible............Dave.

13th January 2011, 02:30 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Dave, congrats....nice Kaskara. Are there any makers marks near the hilt ? The diamond patterning is similar to one of mine. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kaskara Kind Regards David

13th January 2011, 09:53 PM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Hi David: No, unfortunately there are no makers marks or any other marks of any kind except the script. The blade is 35 inches long with a single wide fuller extending the full length to the tip. The blade is also very flexible. Even though there are no makers marks i believe it to probably be German made, based on the quality of the blade. I have nothing to base this on other than a hunch. We bought this sword over twenty years ago. The scabbard is of the highest quality that one usually sees with this type of handle and blade, but unfortunately the main carry strap is in bad shape. The main reason that we trying to get a translation is because an arab historian that we took this sword to told us that one side translated to being the geneolgy of Ali Dinar. At the time, this meant nothing to us, but now knowing a little bit of the history of the area it is much more meaningfull. The other side of the blade he was not able to translate but since then another person said that it reads as follows "WHEN THEY RIDE ON THE BACKS OF THEIR HORSES THEY ARE EXTREMELY DETERMINED AND COURAGES". This Historian then offered us a large amount of money for the sword, which basically blew us away. I don't know if this is an Ali Dinar sword or not. I think you people here might have some insight in helping us identify more about this sword...........Dave and Lonna.

14th January 2011, 03:56 AM	#7
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	David: Yes, it would be great if we could finally attribute this kaskara to Ali Dinar. We have at least three more silver-hilted kaskaras that we hope- fully will be able to post in the future. Two of the three have european blades that are layered damascus. Another kaskara has one end of it,s crossguard engraved backwards "Ali" with a date of i think 1896 though i'm not sure of the exact date. It was used to seal important documents with sealing wax..........Dave

17th January 2011, 02:28 AM	#11
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: Thank you very much for that translation. It does differ slightly from what we were told originally, but the gist of the meaning was similar. Has anyone had any luck with the other inscription........Dave.

18th January 2011, 03:22 AM	#13
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: Again, thank you very much for your work in translating these inscrip- tions. I wonder if there would be any information in any books on Islamic arms regarding the two pieces of chain mail on the tassels. The man that did the first translations had said that these represented to recent births in the owners family. There's never been anything iv'e ever read that refers to a practice like this. Has anyone ever heard of this..........Dave.