Who am I

[Rick]

Hi Spiral , I am by no means an expert in Hindu iconography . I have seen my fair share of depictions of them and have yet to see a Makara with any human features from Indo .

<standard caveats apply>

[tom hyle]

The features Ian mentions are in fact almost exactly what we have in the first handle, except mirror imaged/flip-flopped; the tusk is in the left hand, the trunk in the right. BTW if the trunk represents the "ohm" it would make sense for it to emerge from the mouth. The mouse is on the head, rather than ridden upon. The two rather than more arms seems part of Indonesian vs. Hindoo art.
The ears on the first one don't look elephantine at all. They are way too small, and the wrong shape. However, the winglike/featherlike appendage on the head dress(?) do occupy the space an elephant's ears would.
#2 is a bigger picture now. Still can't tell what's up with the left hand though. Small ears on that one.

[Jens Nordlunde]

There seem to be some confusion about the looks of the Ganesha, there are 32 forms, have a look here http://www.templenet.com/beliefs/ganesha_icon.htm

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

There seem to be some confusion about the looks of the Ganesha, there are 32 forms, have a look here http://www.templenet.com/beliefs/ganesha_icon.htm

True Jens but these are Indian forms not Balinese and that is the sticking point here I believe . Iconography changes from culture to culture , even if the cultures may share the same religion the deities may be depicted differently .

All of the Ganesha figures depicted in this discussion have only two arms ; are we then to assume that none of these are Ganesha because of that ?

Here are 3 close ups taken from Cedric's pictures .

The first , a side view shows the continuity of line of the trunk and what (IMO) is undoubtedly a tusk .

The second , a front view shows the first segmentation line between the tusks ; if this is a beak there would be a point there instead of a horizontal line .

The third picture shows (again IMO) a rat's head with the long snout and small teeth .

I think it's time for someone to come up with pictures of an unmistakeable Garuda eating a naga Balinese hilt form , or a Makara with human legs and arms .

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Rick

... those are Indian forms not Balinese and that is the sticking point here I believe. Iconography changes from culture to culture , even if the cultures may share the same religion the deities may be depicted differently.

Excellent point Rick, and it makes our interpretation of these culture-specific deity forms so difficult. We need a cultural historian from within the host culture of this specimen to interpret this particular form. What may have started centuries ago as a Ganesha representation has morphed into something (or someone) that is barely recognisable as the original. Certainly this form is not how Ganesha's representation has developed over time in more mainstream Hindu settings.

[spiral]

I dont know about Indonesia but I found the Nepalese Hindus were very comfterble with the morphing of Gods & thier symbols, to the point where if something could appear to be 2 religious icons or symbols at the same time, that was excelent, much better than one & would carry more power or luck.

They didnt seem to have the same western need for exact classification & sub classification that many of us are used to.

Would the Indonesian have a similar relaxed & accepting nature, I wonder?

Spiral

[Jens Nordlunde]

I realised that the different deities would look different from place to place, but I did not realise that the iconography would be different from place to place. However if you insist, I will bow my head and hurry to bring some links to Balinese Ganesha’s.

Balinese Ganesha http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/han...ood_ganesh.htm

http://www.hofstra.edu/COM/Museum/mu...melanesian.cfm here you, amongst other can read this text: ‘A few figures in the exhibition at Hofstra exemplify a substyle of the more prevalent New Guinea/Sepik artistic language, and that is the "Beak," a regional variation of the lower Sepik and environs. In these areas, a figure's nose descends into a prominent tip occasionally reaching to the chin or further into the lower anatomy. Complimentary to this distinctive representation of nose is narrowing of the face along a perpendicular axis with corresponding slanting eyes. Lost in history is the reason for this unique facial appearance; over the current century, Western scholars have postulated the nose "beak" as a sign of clan identification with the totem hornbill bird or as a provincial adaptation of the Hindu/Balinese Ganesha elephantine god of wisdom and scholarship.

Here is another one http://www.symbiosys.nl/wink/E_art_176.html

And a lot of different Ganesha’s from different places http://www.symbiosys.nl/wink/E_noframes.html