Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

David · 12th December 2010, 04:59 PM

There are, of course, a great variety of styles and forms in the world of Native American clubs and i would be the first to admit that i don't know much about them. But one thing that does seem to be present in most of the ones i've see is a high level of craft which seems absent here. I am therefore rather suspicious of these as authentic examples.

David · 12th December 2010, 05:08 PM

Is is a link to some examples of Plains Tribes war clubs:
http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...clubspage1.htm

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2010, 05:31 PM

Great Link David. I have some information to up load. Like you, with this sort of material one always has concerns about authenticity. I am on the fence. I have to say on inspection with a x10 loop there is a lot of craft, more than at first glance. The hide wrap on both items is not unravelled soaked dog chew hide. The hair still in the hide shows considerable preperation. Anybody can cut tassle in leather but I have to say they are very well done, very fine. Making a hole in a flint pebble is not that easy? The clubs on display at the British Museum were of all sizes and shape and size of stone. Many had the most beautiful beadwork on the handles.

There does seem to have been an auction of a Black Pipe Bank state collection, but I can find little info.

My reseach ref- Black Pipe Bank collection, has leed me to this auction house "SHOBE AUCTION & REALTY" I have email them to see if there is any possiblity of information.

fearn · 12th December 2010, 07:35 PM

It's possible they're genuine, since the wrappings are rawhide and the colors are consistent with what I've read for the Lakota.

That said, it's not hard to fake, and the specimens look a bit clumsy, compared to some of the other swinging clubs.

The real test actually is swinging them (not to hit anything). If the stone head goes where you want it, that's a positive. If it twists all over the place, I'd be more concerned.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2010, 08:03 PM

Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land

laEspadaAncha · 12th December 2010, 10:15 PM

From a dealer's perspective, I would think they are probably a necessity. Tags add a certain panache, a 2-cent provenance that not only frees up the dealer's time (as he or she doesn't have to answer basic attribution-related questions that are addressed by the tags), but IMO provide a certain degree of psychological comfort level for the prospective buyer.

That being said, as you know, you buy the club, not the tag...

Now... I do know one dealer (of a certain TV show fame) who goes a step further and uses antiqued cards with yellowed twine. Every item tag looks as old the as item to which it is attached!

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2010, 06:24 PM

This is what the auction house says.

Tim:

Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection.

The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word.

This is all that I recall about the same.

Hope this is of some help.

Jayson Shobe

So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing

thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal

.

12th December 2010, 05:31 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Great Link David. I have some information to up load. Like you, with this sort of material one always has concerns about authenticity. I am on the fence. I have to say on inspection with a x10 loop there is a lot of craft, more than at first glance. The hide wrap on both items is not unravelled soaked dog chew hide. The hair still in the hide shows considerable preperation. Anybody can cut tassle in leather but I have to say they are very well done, very fine. Making a hole in a flint pebble is not that easy? The clubs on display at the British Museum were of all sizes and shape and size of stone. Many had the most beautiful beadwork on the handles. There does seem to have been an auction of a Black Pipe Bank state collection, but I can find little info. My reseach ref- Black Pipe Bank collection, has leed me to this auction house "SHOBE AUCTION & REALTY" I have email them to see if there is any possiblity of information. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th December 2010 at 05:53 PM. Reason: adding stuff

12th December 2010, 08:03 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th December 2010 at 08:20 PM. Reason: SPELLING

12th December 2010, 04:59 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	There are, of course, a great variety of styles and forms in the world of Native American clubs and i would be the first to admit that i don't know much about them. But one thing that does seem to be present in most of the ones i've see is a high level of craft which seems absent here. I am therefore rather suspicious of these as authentic examples.

12th December 2010, 05:08 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Is is a link to some examples of Plains Tribes war clubs: http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...clubspage1.htm

12th December 2010, 07:35 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It's possible they're genuine, since the wrappings are rawhide and the colors are consistent with what I've read for the Lakota. That said, it's not hard to fake, and the specimens look a bit clumsy, compared to some of the other swinging clubs. The real test actually is swinging them (not to hit anything). If the stone head goes where you want it, that's a positive. If it twists all over the place, I'd be more concerned. Best, F

12th December 2010, 10:15 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	From a dealer's perspective, I would think they are probably a necessity. Tags add a certain panache, a 2-cent provenance that not only frees up the dealer's time (as he or she doesn't have to answer basic attribution-related questions that are addressed by the tags), but IMO provide a certain degree of psychological comfort level for the prospective buyer. That being said, as you know, you buy the club, not the tag... Now... I do know one dealer (of a certain TV show fame) who goes a step further and uses antiqued cards with yellowed twine. Every item tag looks as old the as item to which it is attached!

13th December 2010, 06:24 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	This is what the auction house says. Tim: Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection. The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word. This is all that I recall about the same. Hope this is of some help. Jayson Shobe So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal .