Tatar saber for discussion

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

To be short, I checked out Wikipedia for you, and I'll bring you some basic informations:

Lithuanian and Polish Tatars are generally the same. The latter name was spread after the 1st WW, when Lithuania and Poland became independent, separately countries. Polish Tatars (I will use nowaday term) originate from the Golden Horde and from Crimea. These were political refugees from out there, which settled in Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 14th century. They were accepted by the state and become obliged for military service. Soon they were ennobled, but they have stayed with their religion (Islam), culture and traditions. In 16th and 17th centuries Tatars were mostly polonized (you must remember that Lithuania and Poland were, in general, the one country, connected with Union). Today, after the II WW there are only two Tatar's villages in Poland (they're still have Islam as main religion, as well the traditions) and they're mostly dispersed.
Some of the Tatars were lived also in Volhynia and Podolia (today Ukraine) in 17th-18th centuries.

As I said, only brief history
Regards

[erlikhan]

thanks. short but quite informing. but not enough especially to solve the mystery for me, why Tatar sabers are rare? Odd, when their militaristic state and community considered. They stood independent till 1783. i think it is a date, which should be close enough to let more samples still exist .

[ham]

Gentlemen,

The swords we refer to as Tatar, Tatarska, Ordynka, etc. are rare because they were superseded by commoner forms within a relatively short period. Polish museums hold the most Tartar items, though Russian and Swedish ones have some interesting examples. Stalin saw to it the Tartars themselves were removed in toto over 50 years ago, you'll only hear Ukranian at Bahcesarayi anymore.
Unfortunately the old Orientalist fantasy of shadowy eastern bazaars bulging with the finest antique arms available to adventurous fellows for a pittance is precisely that-- a dream. Having spent many a year researching in Eastern Europe, Egypt and Turkey, I have seen what was once available in good antique weapons dwindle over time. What remains is often poorly restored or composed of associated parts. Same scenario even up in the Caucasus mountains, though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons. Bulgaria and Romania are devoid of anything save yatagans worn down to table knives, I'm afraid. Western Europe, particularly England and Germany, seems to have the best Eastern arms on the market.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ham

though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons.

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yes, I would like to see what Ham sees like copies.

I have been in Georgia recently and the only place I saw Khevsur swords was the museum. I posted pictures in other topic. No in antique shops not in bazars.

In the other hand I have seen 8 Khevsur swords in greek collections (1 is mine), 5-6 more in Ebay and in dealers hands . If any of these is a copy I am blind

Where are the copies????

The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago. This is normal because the origin area is remote and it was close to western people for almost 70 years. Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market. So they sell what they find. Most of them are in good contition just because there is a vivid tradition in Khevsur people.

[erlikhan]

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

There are some quality kindjals being made in Dagestan today, but the price is about 100$-200$ for the blade alone, so it makes no sence for them to sell it as fakes.

[ham]

"The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago.... Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market."

Gentlemen,

Yannis' observations are entirely accurate, and explain perfectly why numerous copies of Khevsur weapons are appearing on the market in Tbilisi. The examples I saw there had old blades, some straight, some curved-- no scarcity of them, apparently. When asked, the local collectors I met generally reponded that they were made in the 1950s during the Stalin era for dance troupes and other ceremonies intended to promote Georgian culture. Dealers, on the other hand, said there were a few characters in town who build hilts and scabbards around old blades and sell them along a particular prospect near the river and at the flea market-- I visited both these spots and did see several in addition to some old but extremely worn kindjals and a few Soviet bayonets. On the other hand, I saw no Khevsur weapons in private collections there, which in itself is telling. Incidentally bravo Yannis for the images of the arms displays at the History Museum. I didn't dare bring a camera in there for fear of having it confiscated.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Yannis]

I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff.

I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords!

I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos.

If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks!

The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks.