Moro Spear

Gavin Nugent · 28th November 2010, 10:19 PM

Great developments guys,

Tunggulametung, Big G, thank you for the translation teachings and notations added to the images and thank you to everyone who has taken an interest in trying to solve the mystery script on this blade.

Lorenz, the images shown in museum Lee's thread are nothing short of superb, the trip you made and the photos you took are invaluable and I have not forgotten images for you either. Of particular interest were the iron butt ends as seen on spears from other countries along with the example similar to Maurice's spear and even a blade shape similar to mine, it seems this museum has every option/angle covered...nice to see the Chinese polearms too.

Would it help further if I posted further images of the script from another angle?

thanks to all and may the force be with you too ;-)

Gavin Nugent · 13th July 2011, 04:50 AM

A little bump from the past.

I have turned up no more on this piece or an exacting translation but have on the Kampilan...more on that later.

Curious to know if anyone else following leads are able to offer anything further?

Gav

mohd · 13th July 2011, 11:42 AM

Hi Gavin and all the forum members,

I think the forum members especially Jentayu and Tunggulametung had already done great job in translating the scripts written on the blade of the Bangsamoro spear.
Anyhow I just want to contribute some little info that might be useful in addition to their works.
I don't know any of the Bangsamoro language (i.e. Bajau, Tausug, Illanun etc).
Anyhow the Bangsamoro language basically has a very strong resemblance with the Malay language (i.e. we shared words such as keris, golok, pisau, tumpul, sumbing, kota, batu, kerbau etc).
Even we Malay always consider the Bangsamoro as Malay of the Philippines.

Okay, let's proceed with the transliteration of the text written on the blade of the Bangsamoro spear.

The first line appear as بــجــاﻻن دتــوﺀ كــمــيــد
Or it might be بــجــاﻻن دتــوﺀ كــمــيـــل
It's transliteration is bjalan dtu' kmid or bjalan dtu' kmil.
In the current Malay spelling it should appear as bejalan Datu' Kamid or bejalan Datu' Kamil.
I only understand the words Datu' Kamid or Datu' Kamil who must be the name of a royal family or a ruler somewhere in Southern Philippines.
The words bejalan do carry meaning in Malay (i.e. walking) anyhow IMVHO it doesn't really relevance in this very particular phrase.
Bejalan might has a totally different meaning in the Bangsamoro language.
One thing, I prefer the first transliteration just because IMVHO the name of Kamid is more longer and widely used compare to Kamil which I consider as rather new in usage in South East Asia.

بـ ± b (i.e. it must be alphabet بـ ± b because alphabet تـ ± t, ثـ ± th, نـ ± n and يـ ± i very seldom to meet with the alphabet ـجـ ± j in Malay language group phonetically)
ـجـ ± j (i.e. it must be ـجـ ± j because it is more in the usage compare to ـحـ ± h and ـخـ ± kh in Malay language group)
ـا ± a
ﻻ‎ ± la
ن ± n (i.e. this alphabet ن ± n must be at the end of the word because it is just not right phonetically to have alphabet د ± d as the last one in any words in Malay language group)

د ± d (i.e. this alphabet د ± d must be the first alphabet of a new word in this particular text)
تـ ± t
ـو ± u
ﺀ ± ' [i.e. in the olden days it is a normal practices in Jawi to add ﺀ ± ' (i.e. hamzah) at the end (i.e. placed at the top of the used vowel alphabet) of the words to make it sound in between of a wovel sound and a k sound which carries totally different meanings such as datu' (i.e. rulers title) and datuk (grandfather) or bala' (i.e. disaster) and balak (i.e. logwood)]

كـ ± k
ـمـ ± m
ـيـ ± i
ـد ± d or ـل ± l (i.e. the alphabet actually looks more like ـل ± l but historically we seldom found name Kamil used among South East Asian Muslim during those olden days; personally I believe the alphabet is actually ـد ± d)

The second line appear as نــاكــر كــن دتــوﺀ حــاســم
Or it might be نــاكــد كــن دتــوﺀ حــاســم
It's transliteration is nakr kn dtu' hasm or nakd kn dtu' hasm.
In the current Malay spelling it should appear as nakarkan Datu' Hasim or nakadkan Datu' Hasim.
I only understand the words Datu' Hasim who must be of another royal family or a ruler in the Southern Philippines.
The words nakarkan or nakadkan do not carry meaning in Malay.

نـ ± n
ـا ± a (i.e. alphabet نـ ± n at the beginning of any word can not be written alone by itself; it must be followed by another alphabet)
كـ ± k
ـر ± r or ـد ± d (i.e. IMVHO here the writing of alphabet ـر ± r looks very closely similar to alphabet ـد ± d).

كـ ± k
ـن ± n

د ± d
تـ ± t
ـو ± u
ﺀ ± ' (i.e. kindly ref to my explanation on the same alphabet above)

حـ ± h
ـا ± a
سـ ± s
ـم ± m

In summary it seems the text is letting us know that the particular Bangsamoro spear in your custody was actualy got something to do with the life and the deed of two royal families or rulars somewhere in Southern Philippines by the name Datu' Kamid or Datu' Kamil and Datu' Hasim.
So sorry, this little info which I can offer you here, Gavin

It still has to be referred to any Bangsamoro language expert regarding the actual meaning of the text.

mohd

tom hyle · 13th July 2011, 05:33 PM

I've seen this same butt treatment on Chinese pole arms, and often with a flat ribbon attached. It even closely resembles a feature common on Tibetan phurbas (ritual spears)

Gavin Nugent · 13th July 2011, 11:27 PM

Mohd,

Thank you very much for your time and interest in offering your insight in to the writings found on this spear and adding to the wonderful works already provided by Jentayu and Tunggulametung, it is greatly appreciated and I know you spent quite a lot of your personal time doing so.

My thanks

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 14th July 2011, 02:12 PM

A little extra detail from the estate this spear came from.

Master Gunnery Sergeant George Pelletiere, US Marine Corps who fought in the Battle of Guadalcanal during WWII.

Whilst he may not have obtained this during service, the ship could have passed through the Philippines??? And his position, he could certainly find space within the ships hull...equally he could have bought or obtained this stateside at any time in his life....

Some food for thought.

Gav

Rick · 15th July 2011, 07:16 PM

Master Gunny ?
I'd figure he was in the service before the war; possibly a Lifer, former China Marine as they used to call 'em .

Reckon they were assigned to the Philippines too .

Gavin Nugent · 2nd September 2011, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Master Gunny ?
I'd figure he was in the service before the war; possibly a Lifer, former China Marine as they used to call 'em .

Reckon they were assigned to the Philippines too .

Indeed Rick, likely a lifer.

How does one obtain military records to follow his service trail through the South Pacific?

28th November 2010, 10:19 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I've been quiet... Great developments guys, Tunggulametung, Big G, thank you for the translation teachings and notations added to the images and thank you to everyone who has taken an interest in trying to solve the mystery script on this blade. Lorenz, the images shown in museum Lee's thread are nothing short of superb, the trip you made and the photos you took are invaluable and I have not forgotten images for you either. Of particular interest were the iron butt ends as seen on spears from other countries along with the example similar to Maurice's spear and even a blade shape similar to mine, it seems this museum has every option/angle covered...nice to see the Chinese polearms too. Would it help further if I posted further images of the script from another angle? thanks to all and may the force be with you too ;-)

13th July 2011, 04:50 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Bump A little bump from the past. I have turned up no more on this piece or an exacting translation but have on the Kampilan...more on that later. Curious to know if anyone else following leads are able to offer anything further? Gav

13th July 2011, 11:27 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you Mohd, Thank you very much for your time and interest in offering your insight in to the writings found on this spear and adding to the wonderful works already provided by Jentayu and Tunggulametung, it is greatly appreciated and I know you spent quite a lot of your personal time doing so. My thanks Gavin

14th July 2011, 02:12 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	a little extra detail A little extra detail from the estate this spear came from. Master Gunnery Sergeant George Pelletiere, US Marine Corps who fought in the Battle of Guadalcanal during WWII. Whilst he may not have obtained this during service, the ship could have passed through the Philippines??? And his position, he could certainly find space within the ships hull...equally he could have bought or obtained this stateside at any time in his life.... Some food for thought. Gav

13th July 2011, 11:42 AM	#3
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	Hi Gavin and all the forum members, I think the forum members especially Jentayu and Tunggulametung had already done great job in translating the scripts written on the blade of the Bangsamoro spear. Anyhow I just want to contribute some little info that might be useful in addition to their works. I don't know any of the Bangsamoro language (i.e. Bajau, Tausug, Illanun etc). Anyhow the Bangsamoro language basically has a very strong resemblance with the Malay language (i.e. we shared words such as keris, golok, pisau, tumpul, sumbing, kota, batu, kerbau etc). Even we Malay always consider the Bangsamoro as Malay of the Philippines. Okay, let's proceed with the transliteration of the text written on the blade of the Bangsamoro spear. The first line appear as بــجــاﻻن دتــوﺀ كــمــيــد Or it might be بــجــاﻻن دتــوﺀ كــمــيـــل It's transliteration is bjalan dtu' kmid or bjalan dtu' kmil. In the current Malay spelling it should appear as bejalan Datu' Kamid or bejalan Datu' Kamil. I only understand the words Datu' Kamid or Datu' Kamil who must be the name of a royal family or a ruler somewhere in Southern Philippines. The words bejalan do carry meaning in Malay (i.e. walking) anyhow IMVHO it doesn't really relevance in this very particular phrase. Bejalan might has a totally different meaning in the Bangsamoro language. One thing, I prefer the first transliteration just because IMVHO the name of Kamid is more longer and widely used compare to Kamil which I consider as rather new in usage in South East Asia. بـ ± b (i.e. it must be alphabet بـ ± b because alphabet تـ ± t, ثـ ± th, نـ ± n and يـ ± i very seldom to meet with the alphabet ـجـ ± j in Malay language group phonetically) ـجـ ± j (i.e. it must be ـجـ ± j because it is more in the usage compare to ـحـ ± h and ـخـ ± kh in Malay language group) ـا ± a ﻻ‎ ± la ن ± n (i.e. this alphabet ن ± n must be at the end of the word because it is just not right phonetically to have alphabet د ± d as the last one in any words in Malay language group) د ± d (i.e. this alphabet د ± d must be the first alphabet of a new word in this particular text) تـ ± t ـو ± u ﺀ ± ' [i.e. in the olden days it is a normal practices in Jawi to add ﺀ ± ' (i.e. hamzah) at the end (i.e. placed at the top of the used vowel alphabet) of the words to make it sound in between of a wovel sound and a k sound which carries totally different meanings such as datu' (i.e. rulers title) and datuk (grandfather) or bala' (i.e. disaster) and balak (i.e. logwood)] كـ ± k ـمـ ± m ـيـ ± i ـد ± d or ـل ± l (i.e. the alphabet actually looks more like ـل ± l but historically we seldom found name Kamil used among South East Asian Muslim during those olden days; personally I believe the alphabet is actually ـد ± d) The second line appear as نــاكــر كــن دتــوﺀ حــاســم Or it might be نــاكــد كــن دتــوﺀ حــاســم It's transliteration is nakr kn dtu' hasm or nakd kn dtu' hasm. In the current Malay spelling it should appear as nakarkan Datu' Hasim or nakadkan Datu' Hasim. I only understand the words Datu' Hasim who must be of another royal family or a ruler in the Southern Philippines. The words nakarkan or nakadkan do not carry meaning in Malay. نـ ± n ـا ± a (i.e. alphabet نـ ± n at the beginning of any word can not be written alone by itself; it must be followed by another alphabet) كـ ± k ـر ± r or ـد ± d (i.e. IMVHO here the writing of alphabet ـر ± r looks very closely similar to alphabet ـد ± d). كـ ± k ـن ± n د ± d تـ ± t ـو ± u ﺀ ± ' (i.e. kindly ref to my explanation on the same alphabet above) حـ ± h ـا ± a سـ ± s ـم ± m In summary it seems the text is letting us know that the particular Bangsamoro spear in your custody was actualy got something to do with the life and the deed of two royal families or rulars somewhere in Southern Philippines by the name Datu' Kamid or Datu' Kamil and Datu' Hasim. So sorry, this little info which I can offer you here, Gavin It still has to be referred to any Bangsamoro language expert regarding the actual meaning of the text. mohd

13th July 2011, 05:33 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I've seen this same butt treatment on Chinese pole arms, and often with a flat ribbon attached. It even closely resembles a feature common on Tibetan phurbas (ritual spears)

15th July 2011, 07:16 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Master Gunny ? I'd figure he was in the service before the war; possibly a Lifer, former China Marine as they used to call 'em . Reckon they were assigned to the Philippines too .