Sword with Persian style decoration in the Topkapi Saray

Rivkin · 21st June 2005, 06:09 PM

Well, we've just seen a tatar sabre with a golden dot in another thread - I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with Abbasids. There is one sword on e-bay right now (and I don't discuss it

) that has dots, and explicitly dated from XVIII century.

Concerning "swords of companions", it's usually impossible to prove that something is not of VIIIth century, but usually the burden of proof is on the person claiming it to be of VIIIth century.

Concerning mamluks and their relationship with Muhammed, one has to remember that circassian mamluks and even some later georgian mamluks (Ridwan bey) claimed descendancy from the companions by telling stories about some of the companions "getting lost" and "appearing" in Circassia. Actually few muslim leaders did not claim to be sharif, sayyid or at least in some relationship with Umar. My favorite example is that of my friend, Usupov, from Nogai nobility. Officially he descends from "Abu Bakr, Kirei ibn Dok - Caliph of Egypt and other countries". The problem being that Kirei is a tatar tribe, and Dok means fat in turkish

.

Another great example of how important religious relics are is example of judaim - when it was split in between of chasids and misnageds, the first ones suddenly "inherited" the staff of Moses (naturally the ones who presented it claimed the descendancy from Moses' brother) !

Justin · 21st June 2005, 08:05 PM

Just a shot in the dark,as I'm far from knowledgeable about these swords, but the blade of the very first emample posted looks a whole lot like a Chinese jian blade and the scabbard of the same sword looks very ,very jian like as well,I only skimmed through this thread but I was puzzled that no one had mentioned this yet{maybe I missed it}.

Ooops,at first glance I didnt see the script on the sheath's fittings,I guess it isnt so Chinese looking then.

wolviex · 21st June 2005, 10:44 PM

I'm truly sorry Brian but this sword isn't from my Museum

. I'll try to get photo tomorrow

Michal

B.I · 22nd June 2005, 12:14 AM

dont apologise, michal. this means there is another in poland i am not aware of

the one i showed must be from wawel then.
another two swords, one with the said blade from the royal castel of wawel are attached here.
i look forward to seeing your museums sword.

21st June 2005, 08:05 PM	#2
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 182	Just a shot in the dark,as I'm far from knowledgeable about these swords, but the blade of the very first emample posted looks a whole lot like a Chinese jian blade and the scabbard of the same sword looks very ,very jian like as well,I only skimmed through this thread but I was puzzled that no one had mentioned this yet{maybe I missed it}. Ooops,at first glance I didnt see the script on the sheath's fittings,I guess it isnt so Chinese looking then. Last edited by Justin; 21st June 2005 at 11:52 PM.

21st June 2005, 10:44 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	oops I'm truly sorry Brian but this sword isn't from my Museum . I'll try to get photo tomorrow Michal

22nd June 2005, 12:14 AM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	dont apologise, michal. this means there is another in poland i am not aware of the one i showed must be from wawel then. another two swords, one with the said blade from the royal castel of wawel are attached here. i look forward to seeing your museums sword. Attached Images

21st June 2005, 06:09 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, we've just seen a tatar sabre with a golden dot in another thread - I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with Abbasids. There is one sword on e-bay right now (and I don't discuss it ) that has dots, and explicitly dated from XVIII century. Concerning "swords of companions", it's usually impossible to prove that something is not of VIIIth century, but usually the burden of proof is on the person claiming it to be of VIIIth century. Concerning mamluks and their relationship with Muhammed, one has to remember that circassian mamluks and even some later georgian mamluks (Ridwan bey) claimed descendancy from the companions by telling stories about some of the companions "getting lost" and "appearing" in Circassia. Actually few muslim leaders did not claim to be sharif, sayyid or at least in some relationship with Umar. My favorite example is that of my friend, Usupov, from Nogai nobility. Officially he descends from "Abu Bakr, Kirei ibn Dok - Caliph of Egypt and other countries". The problem being that Kirei is a tatar tribe, and Dok means fat in turkish . Another great example of how important religious relics are is example of judaim - when it was split in between of chasids and misnageds, the first ones suddenly "inherited" the staff of Moses (naturally the ones who presented it claimed the descendancy from Moses' brother) !