NZ Maori connection treen rack mystery

David · 21st November 2010, 08:36 PM

I do hope that when you mentioned "hacking" this piece you were not suggesting cutting into it to adapt it as a knife rack. That would seem a shame to me.

Gavin Nugent · 21st November 2010, 08:43 PM

An interesting bit of history.

Another factor to consider is the representation of the snakes, rather unusual I thought since they have no snakes in NZ, so under what influence did these appear.

Gav

Atlantia · 21st November 2010, 09:24 PM

David,

Thanks mate, appreciate your help. It's a strange thing isn't it?
As for hacking it.... I'm thinking twice, it's really growing on me as-is!
I think it'll make a cracking shelf for odds 'n' bobs

Very heavily waxed, lovely patination.
The monogram is odd, C.H with two extra bars that don't seem to be connected. You think it's another H?

Gav,

Good point about the snakes!
If we could definately ID the use it might help. The holes are just big enough for your little finger.
Must be pipes, surely?
If it wasn't that nobody considered smoking unhealthy back then I'd think that the snakes represented temptation and the motto was to stay strong while abstaining?

Here's a better pic:

Thanks guys

kahnjar1 · 22nd November 2010, 04:13 AM

http://www.googlejersey.com/nhl-jers...ed-p-8275.html
Check out this link. The Logo is the same and the CH 1909 is also involved. Can't see why Kia Kaha is there unless they just like the Maori phrase! Kia Kaha is not just used by the military, but used in all sorts of "rev up" phrases. but certainly St Laurence fits with Montreal!
Further to the above link, a search of the "Canadiens" on Google shows they were founded in 1909, so.....the plot thickens. The Kia Kaha bit is NOT the motto of this team. I personally do not think that this item has UK connections, but rather Canadian.

Atlantia · 22nd November 2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.googlejersey.com/nhl-jers...ed-p-8275.html
Check out this link. The Logo is the same and the CH 1909 is also involved. Can't see why Kia Kaha is there unless they just like the Maori phrase! Kia Kaha is not just used by the military, but used in all sorts of "rev up" phrases. but certainly St Laurence fits with Montreal!
Further to the above link, a search of the "Canadiens" on Google shows they were founded in 1909, so.....the plot thickens. The Kia Kaha bit is NOT the motto of this team. I personally do not think that this item has UK connections, but rather Canadian.

HI Stu,

Thanks for coming in on this one.
The plot does thicken indeed!
It seems to be quite a popular motto. I must admit, I'm more than consused now

Any thoughts as to use?

Cheers
Gene

Atlantia · 22nd November 2010, 11:35 AM

I will just add one thing. The date of 1909 seems to fit with the construction of the piece. The carving, patina, deterioration of the pins, type of pins used etc. I'm absolutely sure that this isn't a later made piece with a comemorative earlier date.

David · 22nd November 2010, 12:26 PM

Interesting kahnjar, but i don't quite see the connection of the snakes with hockey and i'm not sure we can connect Northfield to Montreal though we can find an English place for St. Laurence, Northfield.
I think the English at that time are far more likely to have some NZ connection than Canada and in the early 1900s the New Zealand Rugby Team "The Blacks" made frequent tours throughout Great Britian playing against British teams. I believe that they may have used this phrase as a rally cry.

kahnjar1 · 22nd November 2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

HI Stu,

Thanks for coming in on this one.
The plot does thicken indeed!
It seems to be quite a popular motto. I must admit, I'm more than consused now

Any thoughts as to use?

Cheers
Gene

Hi Gene,
The coincidences of date and badge I feel would be well worth following up. Perhaps an email to the Canadiens Head Office with a pic would be worthwhile. I would guess that you could get the email from their website.

Other than that I don't have anything else to suggest, but agree that it would be a shame to alter the item until it's origins are established.
A futher comment on the Ake Ake Kia Kaha thing. Yes the Maori Battalion song is exactly that, BUT the phrase is also used widely in other ways also.
Regards Stu

Rick · 22nd November 2010, 08:42 PM

I'm not so sure this is a pipe rack .

Grandfather was a pipe smoker; his racks held the pipe stem up .
This rack looks like it would hold the pipe's stem pointing down .

I would also think that the moisture, tars etc. would run down the stem and provide a very untasty smoke .

I see no depressions under each hole to hold the pipe's bowl .

21st November 2010, 08:43 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting An interesting bit of history. Another factor to consider is the representation of the snakes, rather unusual I thought since they have no snakes in NZ, so under what influence did these appear. Gav

21st November 2010, 09:24 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	David, Thanks mate, appreciate your help. It's a strange thing isn't it? As for hacking it.... I'm thinking twice, it's really growing on me as-is! I think it'll make a cracking shelf for odds 'n' bobs Very heavily waxed, lovely patination. The monogram is odd, C.H with two extra bars that don't seem to be connected. You think it's another H? Gav, Good point about the snakes! If we could definately ID the use it might help. The holes are just big enough for your little finger. Must be pipes, surely? If it wasn't that nobody considered smoking unhealthy back then I'd think that the snakes represented temptation and the motto was to stay strong while abstaining? Here's a better pic: Thanks guys Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 21st November 2010 at 09:39 PM.

22nd November 2010, 04:13 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	http://www.googlejersey.com/nhl-jers...ed-p-8275.html Check out this link. The Logo is the same and the CH 1909 is also involved. Can't see why Kia Kaha is there unless they just like the Maori phrase! Kia Kaha is not just used by the military, but used in all sorts of "rev up" phrases. but certainly St Laurence fits with Montreal! Further to the above link, a search of the "Canadiens" on Google shows they were founded in 1909, so.....the plot thickens. The Kia Kaha bit is NOT the motto of this team. I personally do not think that this item has UK connections, but rather Canadian. Last edited by kahnjar1; 22nd November 2010 at 05:57 AM.

22nd November 2010, 08:42 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Observation I'm not so sure this is a pipe rack . Grandfather was a pipe smoker; his racks held the pipe stem up . This rack looks like it would hold the pipe's stem pointing down . I would also think that the moisture, tars etc. would run down the stem and provide a very untasty smoke . I see no depressions under each hole to hold the pipe's bowl .

21st November 2010, 08:36 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I do hope that when you mentioned "hacking" this piece you were not suggesting cutting into it to adapt it as a knife rack. That would seem a shame to me.

22nd November 2010, 11:35 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I will just add one thing. The date of 1909 seems to fit with the construction of the piece. The carving, patina, deterioration of the pins, type of pins used etc. I'm absolutely sure that this isn't a later made piece with a comemorative earlier date.

22nd November 2010, 12:26 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Interesting kahnjar, but i don't quite see the connection of the snakes with hockey and i'm not sure we can connect Northfield to Montreal though we can find an English place for St. Laurence, Northfield. I think the English at that time are far more likely to have some NZ connection than Canada and in the early 1900s the New Zealand Rugby Team "The Blacks" made frequent tours throughout Great Britian playing against British teams. I believe that they may have used this phrase as a rally cry.