machetes,, regional styles..

VANDOO · 5th November 2010, 01:44 AM

THERE ARE MANY POSTS TO BE FOUND IN THE FORUM AND FORUM ARCHIVES SEARCH USING MACHETE. ONE OLD ONE I REMEMBER THAT WAS FUN WAS POSTED BY THERION, 12/01/2002 TITLED "THE ELISIVE MEXICAN CHICKEN-FACE HUMP-BACK MACHETE" IT STILL HAS SOME PICTURES. ENJOY

SORRY I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT HERE.

fearn · 5th November 2010, 03:08 PM

I agree that the billhook and the machete are different beasts.

However, I think we need to remember what ethnographic is about (at least in my opinion).

Ethnographic does not mean hand made, it means an artifcat of a culture, used to understand that culture.

The interesting thing about the machete is its ethnography. There are certainly handmade machetes (gorgeous ones, even), but "standard" machetes are a product on the industrial age. Industrial practices allowed the creation of the thin, highly tempered steel blades characteristic of most machetes, and colonialism, imperial politics, and global trade meant that these blades were distributed all over the world (as trade, industrial, and military goods), based on designs from all over the world, and locally modified from industrial products all over the world.

In a real sense, machetes are the ultimate "trade blades," and as ethnographic objects, we need to study them as pieces of our global culture, not exotic artifacts.

My 0.000002 cents,

F

Gavin Nugent · 5th November 2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THERE ARE MANY POSTS TO BE FOUND IN THE FORUM AND FORUM ARCHIVES SEARCH USING MACHETE. ONE OLD ONE I REMEMBER THAT WAS FUN WAS POSTED BY THERION, 12/01/2002 TITLED "THE ELISIVE MEXICAN CHICKEN-FACE HUMP-BACK MACHETE" IT STILL HAS SOME PICTURES. ENJOY

SORRY I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT HERE.

Here you go

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001351.html

Gav

Billman · 5th November 2010, 05:26 PM

Glad to have opend up the debate a little, but I disagree that the machete is purely a south american tool. As far as I am aware there was little or no iron and steel working in the Americas prior to the European colonial period. Thus the tool was a European introduction.

Prior to discovering the Americas the Europeans had already colonised or visited much of Asia and the Far , which did have a history of ironworking which probably spread from India in the west, and China and Japan in the east into the Pacific Rime countries.

One only has to look at the wide range of ethnographic weapons/tools in the Rijksmuseum (Museum Volkenkunde) at Leiden http://www.rmv.nl/index.aspx?lang=en or http://www.rmv.nl/zoek_collectie.asp...rchfor1=parang to see a wide range of Far Eastern machete type blades...

It is likely (not proven?) that the long blade proved more useful as a tool for clearing scrub and jungle than the traditional hooks shaped tools common in Europe (although not all European billhooks are concave, some are straight and some are convex) and coupled with the fact that the first colonisers of the Americas were accompanied by sailors, armed with cutlasses - it was a natural progression to take a proven tool to the new land... which is why both machetes and bilhooks are common in Central and Southern America...

The long, thin and relatively wide blade of a machete is not easy to forge, compared to a relatively short billhook, so it is likely it was not a common tool until after a cheap source of reliable steel was available to replace the steel welded to iron methods used to produce the billhook. By the time the right metal was available the methods of mass production were also being introduced into edge tool production, and in England, Sheffield and Birmingham were at the leading edge of technological advancement in cutlery and tool making in the world...

Many machetes have handle scales riveted directly to an extension of the blade, not common on traditional tools or weapons from either Spain or England (altough this method of handling is used on billhooks from Southern France and Italy - and on the cheap imported ones flooding in from India and China..).

I have not seen enough early machetes to see if they are handled with a tang as per swords, cutlasses (and many types of billhook)....

Two machete style blades with tanged handles can be seen at website for Old Tools in France, http://outils-anciens.xooit.fr/t1883...r-une-lame.htm - the origins of both blades are uncertain....

kronckew · 5th November 2010, 08:56 PM

this thread needs more pictures, so just as a reminder, i'll post the picture of my silver eagle hilted acapulco style machete, made in oaxaca, which is also posted & discussed by us earlier here. Linky

Rick · 6th November 2010, 12:36 AM

The Collins Machetes were tempered in molten lead .

Just a tidbit .

Gonzalo G · 6th November 2010, 02:54 AM

It seems that the machete is a spanish colonial weapon-tool. Though there is not certainty about the origin of the name, the most accepted explanation relates its origin to a some kind of diminutive of the word "macho", the last used also in the sense of "work", or "the work made by a men" in the area of Mexico and some other countries in Central America, where it has a meaning of "work made on the field".

The morpholgy and concept of the machete has changed through the centuries, as it originally included straight two edged blades. The machete as we know it, seems to have developed originally in the spanish colonial dominion of the Virreinato de la Nueva España (Viceroyalty of the New Spain), which included not only what actually is Mexico, but also part of Central America (yes, Mexico is part of North America, together with the USA and Canada). The word "machete" itself, comes from the Castilian, which now is the offical languaje of Spain, and its adoption in the rest of the occidental world is proof that it does not existed an equivalent weapon-tool there before.

The older machetes are Spanish, made with Spanish blades, though latter blades were also purchased in the USA in the 19th century. In many cases, the blades were made in Spain but handled in the colonies. The industrial revolution and the mass cheap production of blades displaced Spain from the world markets, so England and the USA became new world producers of machetes. It was also a consecuence of the needs from their respective colonies.

I think there are another aboriginal tool-weapons in other parts of the world that, if not with the same exact morphology of the machete, they serve to the same exact purpose. But the lineage of the machete as we know it, I believe it comes from colonial Spanish-America, and more specifically, from the area of the old Virreinato de la Nueva España, though some of their modern forms were designed by the producers from the anglo-saxon world. Today, some countries from Latin America produce their own machetes, and Mexico has the more diversification of forms of handles and blades.

I would wonder if the blades from Collins were tempered or hardened in molten lead, since if tempered it would would imply an unnecessary step, as the blades could be directly hardened in molten lead without the need of futher tempering, but I can be mistaken.
Regards

Gonzalo

Billman · 6th November 2010, 11:25 AM

The OED gives machete as an alternative spelling for MATCHET (also machet and macheto) - first written reference (at least in English) is given as 1598. The definition is a broad and heavy knife or cutlass, used especially in Central Americas and the West Indies as both a tool and a weapon. Its similarities to the early (and somewhat primitive) naval cutlasses used by the ordinary sailors (not the swords of the officers) in both English and Spanish navies cannot be ignored...

Later machetes may have been manufactured locally, but with little or no metalworking technology present (certainly not in iron and steel, except possibly for meteoritic iron) before the colonisation, all tools and weapoons must have been made in the home country. Spain like the UK had a long history of edge tool making, and use of locally made billhooks and sickles, as well as knife and sword making...

I would guess that machetes were of no real importance until after the slave trade started, and a work force to use them came into being... Pre 1600 only about half a million slaves had been transported - after that date the trade expanded considerably... 35% of all slaves were sent to Brazil (a Portugese speaking colony) and 22% went to Spanish speaking colonies...

See http://www.slaverysite.com/Body/fact...%20figures.htm

There is no doubt that the machete developed for use in countries dominated by the Spanish and Portugese - but we still need to confirm where the first ones were made - in the home country or the colonies.... I do not know much about the early cutlasses, but it is possible large ships carried spare blades packed into boxes for handling as and when the need arose... Once in the New World these could have been used as tools rather than weapons. The machete blade, without a handle can similarly be closely packed for transport.

Another area for further reseach is the Sugar Trade - a wide variety of cane knives, some shaped like billhooks and some shaped like machetes exist... Columbus took cuttings of sugar cane on his voyage of 1492. Hispaniola had its first sugar harvest in 1501 and the Portugese had established sugar cane in Brazil by the early 16th century...

"Approximately 3,000 small mills built before 1550 in the New World created an unprecedented demand for cast iron gears, levers, axles and other implements. Specialist trades in mold-making and iron-casting developed in Europe due to the expansion of sugar production. Sugar mill construction developed technological skills needed for a nascent industrial revolution in the early 17th century."

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sugar

As well as machinery they needed tools for harvesting the cane...

Ref Collins tempering blades in lead - lead melts at 327.46 degrees Celsius - far too high a temperature for tempering steel (150 to 260 degrees) - it stays in a molten state long enough for steel to reach red heat, so could be used for heating steel prior to hardening (it boils at 1749 degrees). Tin however melts at 231.93 degrees, and lead tin alloys (commonly known as solders) reduce the melting point to 183 degrees, adding other metals (such as Bismuth) can lower the temperature as low as 95 degrees (in the 1950's you could buy trick spoons that melted in a cup of hot tea) - so lead/tin/bisimuth alloys could be used for tempering - but temperature control is critical a few degrees +/- can render a blade too hard and brittle or too soft to hold an edge....

As always, much more research is needed -less speculation and less apocryphal stories (hypotheses are OK if they can lead to answers being either supported or repudiated)

5th November 2010, 08:56 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,225	this thread needs more pictures, so just as a reminder, i'll post the picture of my silver eagle hilted acapulco style machete, made in oaxaca, which is also posted & discussed by us earlier here. Linky Last edited by kronckew; 5th November 2010 at 09:12 PM.

6th November 2010, 12:36 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Tidbit The Collins Machetes were tempered in molten lead . Just a tidbit .

6th November 2010, 02:54 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	It seems that the machete is a spanish colonial weapon-tool. Though there is not certainty about the origin of the name, the most accepted explanation relates its origin to a some kind of diminutive of the word "macho", the last used also in the sense of "work", or "the work made by a men" in the area of Mexico and some other countries in Central America, where it has a meaning of "work made on the field". The morpholgy and concept of the machete has changed through the centuries, as it originally included straight two edged blades. The machete as we know it, seems to have developed originally in the spanish colonial dominion of the Virreinato de la Nueva España (Viceroyalty of the New Spain), which included not only what actually is Mexico, but also part of Central America (yes, Mexico is part of North America, together with the USA and Canada). The word "machete" itself, comes from the Castilian, which now is the offical languaje of Spain, and its adoption in the rest of the occidental world is proof that it does not existed an equivalent weapon-tool there before. The older machetes are Spanish, made with Spanish blades, though latter blades were also purchased in the USA in the 19th century. In many cases, the blades were made in Spain but handled in the colonies. The industrial revolution and the mass cheap production of blades displaced Spain from the world markets, so England and the USA became new world producers of machetes. It was also a consecuence of the needs from their respective colonies. I think there are another aboriginal tool-weapons in other parts of the world that, if not with the same exact morphology of the machete, they serve to the same exact purpose. But the lineage of the machete as we know it, I believe it comes from colonial Spanish-America, and more specifically, from the area of the old Virreinato de la Nueva España, though some of their modern forms were designed by the producers from the anglo-saxon world. Today, some countries from Latin America produce their own machetes, and Mexico has the more diversification of forms of handles and blades. I would wonder if the blades from Collins were tempered or hardened in molten lead, since if tempered it would would imply an unnecessary step, as the blades could be directly hardened in molten lead without the need of futher tempering, but I can be mistaken. Regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 7th November 2010 at 01:50 AM.

5th November 2010, 01:44 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE MANY POSTS TO BE FOUND IN THE FORUM AND FORUM ARCHIVES SEARCH USING MACHETE. ONE OLD ONE I REMEMBER THAT WAS FUN WAS POSTED BY THERION, 12/01/2002 TITLED "THE ELISIVE MEXICAN CHICKEN-FACE HUMP-BACK MACHETE" IT STILL HAS SOME PICTURES. ENJOY SORRY I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT HERE.

5th November 2010, 03:08 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I agree that the billhook and the machete are different beasts. However, I think we need to remember what ethnographic is about (at least in my opinion). Ethnographic does not mean hand made, it means an artifcat of a culture, used to understand that culture. The interesting thing about the machete is its ethnography. There are certainly handmade machetes (gorgeous ones, even), but "standard" machetes are a product on the industrial age. Industrial practices allowed the creation of the thin, highly tempered steel blades characteristic of most machetes, and colonialism, imperial politics, and global trade meant that these blades were distributed all over the world (as trade, industrial, and military goods), based on designs from all over the world, and locally modified from industrial products all over the world. In a real sense, machetes are the ultimate "trade blades," and as ethnographic objects, we need to study them as pieces of our global culture, not exotic artifacts. My 0.000002 cents, F

5th November 2010, 05:26 PM	#4
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Glad to have opend up the debate a little, but I disagree that the machete is purely a south american tool. As far as I am aware there was little or no iron and steel working in the Americas prior to the European colonial period. Thus the tool was a European introduction. Prior to discovering the Americas the Europeans had already colonised or visited much of Asia and the Far , which did have a history of ironworking which probably spread from India in the west, and China and Japan in the east into the Pacific Rime countries. One only has to look at the wide range of ethnographic weapons/tools in the Rijksmuseum (Museum Volkenkunde) at Leiden http://www.rmv.nl/index.aspx?lang=en or http://www.rmv.nl/zoek_collectie.asp...rchfor1=parang to see a wide range of Far Eastern machete type blades... It is likely (not proven?) that the long blade proved more useful as a tool for clearing scrub and jungle than the traditional hooks shaped tools common in Europe (although not all European billhooks are concave, some are straight and some are convex) and coupled with the fact that the first colonisers of the Americas were accompanied by sailors, armed with cutlasses - it was a natural progression to take a proven tool to the new land... which is why both machetes and bilhooks are common in Central and Southern America... The long, thin and relatively wide blade of a machete is not easy to forge, compared to a relatively short billhook, so it is likely it was not a common tool until after a cheap source of reliable steel was available to replace the steel welded to iron methods used to produce the billhook. By the time the right metal was available the methods of mass production were also being introduced into edge tool production, and in England, Sheffield and Birmingham were at the leading edge of technological advancement in cutlery and tool making in the world... Many machetes have handle scales riveted directly to an extension of the blade, not common on traditional tools or weapons from either Spain or England (altough this method of handling is used on billhooks from Southern France and Italy - and on the cheap imported ones flooding in from India and China..). I have not seen enough early machetes to see if they are handled with a tang as per swords, cutlasses (and many types of billhook).... Two machete style blades with tanged handles can be seen at website for Old Tools in France, http://outils-anciens.xooit.fr/t1883...r-une-lame.htm - the origins of both blades are uncertain....

6th November 2010, 11:25 AM	#8
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	The OED gives machete as an alternative spelling for MATCHET (also machet and macheto) - first written reference (at least in English) is given as 1598. The definition is a broad and heavy knife or cutlass, used especially in Central Americas and the West Indies as both a tool and a weapon. Its similarities to the early (and somewhat primitive) naval cutlasses used by the ordinary sailors (not the swords of the officers) in both English and Spanish navies cannot be ignored... Later machetes may have been manufactured locally, but with little or no metalworking technology present (certainly not in iron and steel, except possibly for meteoritic iron) before the colonisation, all tools and weapoons must have been made in the home country. Spain like the UK had a long history of edge tool making, and use of locally made billhooks and sickles, as well as knife and sword making... I would guess that machetes were of no real importance until after the slave trade started, and a work force to use them came into being... Pre 1600 only about half a million slaves had been transported - after that date the trade expanded considerably... 35% of all slaves were sent to Brazil (a Portugese speaking colony) and 22% went to Spanish speaking colonies... See http://www.slaverysite.com/Body/fact...%20figures.htm There is no doubt that the machete developed for use in countries dominated by the Spanish and Portugese - but we still need to confirm where the first ones were made - in the home country or the colonies.... I do not know much about the early cutlasses, but it is possible large ships carried spare blades packed into boxes for handling as and when the need arose... Once in the New World these could have been used as tools rather than weapons. The machete blade, without a handle can similarly be closely packed for transport. Another area for further reseach is the Sugar Trade - a wide variety of cane knives, some shaped like billhooks and some shaped like machetes exist... Columbus took cuttings of sugar cane on his voyage of 1492. Hispaniola had its first sugar harvest in 1501 and the Portugese had established sugar cane in Brazil by the early 16th century... "Approximately 3,000 small mills built before 1550 in the New World created an unprecedented demand for cast iron gears, levers, axles and other implements. Specialist trades in mold-making and iron-casting developed in Europe due to the expansion of sugar production. Sugar mill construction developed technological skills needed for a nascent industrial revolution in the early 17th century." Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_sugar As well as machinery they needed tools for harvesting the cane... Ref Collins tempering blades in lead - lead melts at 327.46 degrees Celsius - far too high a temperature for tempering steel (150 to 260 degrees) - it stays in a molten state long enough for steel to reach red heat, so could be used for heating steel prior to hardening (it boils at 1749 degrees). Tin however melts at 231.93 degrees, and lead tin alloys (commonly known as solders) reduce the melting point to 183 degrees, adding other metals (such as Bismuth) can lower the temperature as low as 95 degrees (in the 1950's you could buy trick spoons that melted in a cup of hot tea) - so lead/tin/bisimuth alloys could be used for tempering - but temperature control is critical a few degrees +/- can render a blade too hard and brittle or too soft to hold an edge.... As always, much more research is needed -less speculation and less apocryphal stories (hypotheses are OK if they can lead to answers being either supported or repudiated)