Templar Sword?

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device.

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! Thank you David.
Actually I should have worded that better, and perhaps noted that colloquially the Knights Templar appelation has in many cases been misconstrued in referring to other monastic military orders .
The Knights Templar were indeed a specific group, and existed contemporarily with the Knights Hospitaller (also known as the Order of St. John, later as the Knights of Rhodes and the Knights of Malta). While the Templars and Hospitallers worked together in Jerusalem and environs building fortifications and carrying out thier presumed duties, it seems that they were at times in conflict with each other as well as with another order, the Teutonic Knights.

Certainly in contemporary times there was probably little misunderstanding in identifying these groups, however in modern references and discussions it does seem that some interpolation of terms has occurred, usually inadvertantly and some references have used the collective 'Knights of Christ' term to more accurately attend to these variant groups as a whole. I must admit that much of the literature on Freemasonry and the history of the Knights Templar does present challenges in following some of the complexity in these groups.
Again, thank you for the most valid correction.

Norman, thank you for the Oakeshott categorization, which seems to fit nicely with the provenance which Cesare has noted, with a Templar presence in the village of Legnago near the end of the 13th century. Since the Knights Templars were dissolved officially in 1329, might we presume that the monastic order here were indeed still of Templar origin.

Returning to the sword at hand, again the Christian cross had long been used as a talismanic device on swords and scabbards as early as the 6th-7th centuries, and later of course. In many markings and invocations the Greek cross, similar to that on the pommel here is seen on earlier Frankish blades, and as noted, the markings on this blade III .... III with indistinguishable image in the center, are seen on 10th century INGELRII blades ("The Viking Sword" p.61).

While this blade is clearly later, and the Ingelrii blades lasted possibly as late as the 12th century, could this marking have been carried forward in marking this blade, as well as the traditional Greek cross protective decoration on the pommel?
It is known that some swords of the Crusades did indeed have the 'Cross of St. George' on the pommel in this manner, and it seems that 'MARIA' has been seen on the pommel of another, as well as probably other similar apotropaic or talismanic markings on pommels contemporary to this sword.

[Reichsritter]

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Hello
It can not be the cross of Savoy.
In 1300 the arms of Savoy was as follows:

[Marc]

Well, didn't the Templar's Rule forbid the use of precious metals in their weapons? It sure did in other objects like the spurs or the horse's bits. There was an original rule (72 articles, quoting from memory, here) that was later expanded, so one should check the right version for this sword's chronology.

Yes, I know I should check myself instead of just firing the question, but I'm a bit short of time as of late, I'm sorry.

Welcome, Cesare. We're glad to have you around

[Atlantia]

Wasn't the Templar cross always red? Wouldn't copper or red-gold have been a better metal to use?
Just a random thought..........

[David]

Jim, of course i'm reading you posts mate. How do you think i find out about all this European stuff?
I have not had time to locate any specific academic reference, but AFAIK Templars did take a vow of poverty (and silver would be wealth) and were strictly forbidden from placing personal adornments on their weapons or armor. Not sure if that extended to the sign of the cross which most certainly appeared on some shields and vestments.

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by Cesare

Hello
It can not be the cross of Savoy.
In 1300 the arms of Savoy was as follows:

Hi-

The head of the family actually made a crusade on the century you mention, around 15 ships close to 2000 men against the Ottoman. The count was already using the cross on his shield.

Interesting that the early Savoy arms and the Emperor's single headed eagle are almost identical.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Interesting note there Reichsritter, and would like to hear more on the use of the cross by the House of Savoy. I would imagine this region, even though now part of France, might have been perceived as N. Italy in a geopolitical sense in early times.

As Norman has well described, the use of the cross in many temporal perceptions as a symbol or device on material culture including weapons by no means seems isolated nor indicative of a certain family or group. As far as I can see the styles of cross or certain characteristics in thier imaging is more likely the product of heraldic interpretation and in degree artistic license from later periods. Obviously examples used in iconography such as tomb art and period artistic images can lend well to presuming a style associated with certain groups, but we must realize that these are based on the artists perception in large degree.

I really dont know that trying to determine the style of cross here is likely to tell us more on the group or individual characteristic of its owner, simply that the sword received an embellishment well established in practice in these times.

Thilo, very good note on the cross used by the Tuetonic Knights also. It does seem that the colors involved in mantles and crosses was pertinant, and the note on using metals in accord was well placed. I believe there are examples where these crosses were embellished on sword hilts in enamel, but few examples have survived with that adornment intact, especially excavated examples. Again, I believe that use of precious metal such as silver as used here, would have been seen as reverently placed, and perhaps more durable in use. Many swords do have such markings inlaid with latten (copper alloy inlay) but there does not seem to be a color oriented reason for the use.

Reichsritter, it really would be interesting as I mentioned on the Savoy use of the cross. Are there sword hilt examples?

All the best,
Jim

[mrwizard]

I knew i had a very similar discussion like this a few month ago about the cross on the pommel of a falchion also dated at about 1300. Sadly, i didn't remember where it was... until now. Turns out the cross on the falchion is quite different from the cross on the sword currently under discussion.

Nevertheless, as i spent some time searching for it, i will
put the link here for further reference:
http://www.historische-waffenkunde.de/datenbank.htm

Best Regards,
Thilo

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Reichsritter, it really would be interesting as I mentioned on the Savoy use of the cross. Are there sword hilt examples?

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

No hilt examples that I can show....it's Cesare given data on the sword that I have shared my thoughts. Several variety of crosses in arms was mostly found on the western part of the Mediterrenean, even as far as Barcelona. Of course these were transit points of Crusaders and Knights(each has it's own Patron Saints with distinguishing cross). The only thing I noticed is..only this north Italian family uses a silver cross.

[Reichsritter]

If anybody here has a collection of images of the crusaders seal, I think it's worth looking. I have seen very similar type of swords on the seals, sorry I cannot post pics since I am far from home.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! ...

Dear Mr. McDougall
Just to show you that we read your posts and as an aside, i will add that the Templars remained alive and kicking, even after their extinction in 1312.
Smart King Dom Diniz, not wishing to let their might and wealth be transferred to other orders located out of the country, never obeyed the Pope’s extinction bull and, in 1319, gave the Order the new name of Order of Christ, giving them a national identity and so managing to cease their pursuit, by achieving Pope’s John XII bull for the purpose.
Attached are the versions of the cross that evoluted until the present, the final version having been often used in Portuguese sails during the discoveries period


1 – Templar cross, used in Portugal till the order’s extinction in 1312. Can be found in engravings in the convent of Christ in Tomar.
2 - First cross of the Order of Christ. Appears in the convent of Tomar in 1352. Can also be seen in the Tower of Belem in Lisbon.
2 – Second cross of the Order of Christ. This version is dated 1400. Present in the Tower of Belem and other places.
3 - Final version of the cross, used until today. Dated 1460. It is present in the Tower of Belem (only place where the three versions can be found) and also in many other historic places in Portugal and all over the world.


.

[fernando]

Convent of Christ in Tomar.
Founded by the Grand Master Templar Dom Gualdim Pais in 1162.
We can see a cross painted in the arch of the famous charola (Templar church) and another one of stone in the XVI century Manueline style no less famous Janela do Capítulo (Chapter Window).

.

[fernando]

The Tower of Belem in Lison.
A stylized wealthy fortification, built during the discoveries period (1514-1520), to defend the entrance of the Tagus estuary.
It is now practicaly connected to firm land but, before the sand invasion, large ships could sail around it.
Fully adorned with stone crosses of Christ.

.

[Matchlock]

Great pics and arguments, 'Nando,

Thank you so much.

You are very lucky lad to live in a country with such a beautiful architecture!

Best,
Michl

[Jim McDougall]

My Dear Sir Nando!
Nice riposte there on my little jab , you too Sir David !! Thank you guys.
Well noted there Fernando, the Knights Templar of course did not disappear after the 1312 intrigue (I think I had mistakenly noted 1329), and I think this speaks to the point bI was trying to make. There were other orders modelled on the Knights Templar and indeed a kind of subsidiary branch, in effect thus were indirectly under the 'Templar umbrella'.

Here I must note to you and Sir Marc (here in our little Round Table, and extremely glad to see you posting here on this Marc!! ) I cannot believe my failure to include these important Orders; The Order of Christ of Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Spain, which indeed did continue after 1312.

Here is where the complexity really blossoms, with the Order of Aviz; and in Castile, the Order of Calatrava; in Leon, the Order of Alcantara. The Hospitallers (of St. John of Jerusalem)who became known also as the Knights of Malta, along with of course the Tuetonic Knights and the associated groups in that continued Order.

While many of these were monastic orders, there were many which were military orders of chivalry, but all were essentially claiming peerage to the Temple of Jerusalem origins from which the Templars derived thier name.
The complex flurry of these orders, including a number of apocryphal ones, were the basis of my comment on the sometimes generally applied 'Templar' term.

Getting back to the significant cross on the pommel of our sword in discussion, the concept of swearing oaths on the hilt of a sword predates the Christian era, and naturally with the advent of Christianity and the symbolism of the cross, this became well placed on the swords themselves. As noted by Gene, in degree the very configuration of the hilt itself became a cross, with the guard (termed 'cross' in earlier nomenclature) becoming of course the patibulum.
The sword in those times of chivalry was a Holy instrument, and certainly the adornment with a cross would serve as such embellishment. As far as the use of silver, I would consider that with regard to the use of precious metal in placement of such a Holy symbol, it would be entirely acceptable in the sense of religious vestments being quite outside the stipulation for 'personal' adornment or show of wealth.

I think that the attribution of this sword to Knights Templar specifically is greatly enhanced by the presence of the cross, but probably most strongly supported by the provenance presented by Cesare, which notes the Templar presence in the region of the find and of the period suggested. We have shown that the use of the cross as a symbol on swords not only extended over long periods, but other cases of use by other groups.

I am hoping to direct attention to the markings on the blade I have mentioned, and discover more on them. As I have noted, these are known from Frankish blades much earlier, and I am hoping we can get some further detail on the marks on the blade here OK Cesare?

Thanks very much guys!! great discussion on this!!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Fernando excellent images on these places, brings back great memories of our discussions on the Templars from years ago!!! Thank you!!!

[Dmitry]

Wonderful sword!
Boccia in Armi Bianchi Italiane shows 3 or 4 examples with the symbol of the cross on the pommels, but those date from the late 14th-early 15th c., and are from Florence and Milan.

[Marc]

You're far too kind, Jim, as always

Anyway, regarding the templar's attribution and not wanting to interrupt the interesting discussion going on, I think that the things to consider are rather simple:

- Let's check what kind of cross was being used by the Templars at that time at that place, and see if it was exclusive of them.
- Let's check if the cross in the pommel conforms with the typology of said cross.
If it doesn't, is much more probable that the sword belonged to just a good Christian, fearful of God, who wanted a cross in his sword for religious reasons. In the chaotic scenario of a battle, every bit of possible help is always welcome (there's a reason why sailors and soldiers are such a religious bunch, in general. As religious as superstitious, in fact. It tends to happen when you routinely put your life, literally, in the hands of fate).

In short, if we can't clearly say it's Templar (found in a Templar household, for example), with some kind of proof, it probably isn't. Templars were supposed not to adorn their belongings (another thing is how hard was this rule really enforced at that time) and, at the end, even demographically speaking, there were not that many of them, compared with regular knights, no tot mention plain soldiers. Of course, there was a much larger amount of people associated with them (servants, workers, etc...).

Unless the cross is clearly templar, and the templar cross wasn't used by a significant amount of other people at the time, I think the templar's attribution isn't really warranted.
Just my opinion, of course

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

Ottmar, my expert and learned friend on edged weapons, states that the sword in question is in any case some Christian Order's sword, and a very important one too. He cannot explain the meaning of the signs on it, though.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Not at all Marc!
I think that the focus on this cross on the pommel, while compelling, has proven to be more of a distraction than helpful clue, though it has led to some interesting and comprehensive depth to the discussion.

As noted earlier, as we tried to determine exactly who the Templars were as far as the array of monastic and military orders primarily based on these knights, whose name was taken from reference to the original Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. As has been noted throughout the discussion, the cross itself reflects that the sword probably belonged to an individual of one of these orders, and attempts have been made to determine by the style of the cross, which of the orders it might have been.

According to many resources and thier depictions of variously flourished and shaped crosses, certain styles have been attributed to particular orders and groups. While some can be considered reliably associated or used by the groups named, I am concerned that some of this material might be influenced by 'heraldic license and interpretation' in more recent writing and embellishment of the historical detail.

It has been well noted by Reichsritter that the House of Savoy in North Italy used the silver cross, and suggesting possible association to this sword which was of course found in Italy. However, drawing the relation to the cross and its being a Templar device, plus the fact that it is of silver, cannot conclude that all members, or even any, of the House of Savoy were Templars. It remains an excellent observation however in the process of observing this swords features

Thank you Reichsritter also for the followup in your response as well as for the note on crusaders seals which hopefully will bring more entries.
Also, Thilo, thank you for trying to find the sword with the cross in the pommel and for showing the excellent example despite not the one you were looking for.

Returning to matters at hand, Marcs suggestion of determining which type of cross this might be and aligning with those used by known orders is of course well placed, but the cross here seems as if it has lost some of its detail in the extremities. As we have determined, various crosses were used by the many orders which evolved around the 'Templars' and as Michael's friend has noted, the only thing we can suggest is association to one of the orders, without knowing which.

Again, the strongest supporting denominator is Cesares description of the provenance of the sword, being excavated near a town where Templar preence had been established in the period of this sword by its classification.

It is known, again as previously mentioned, that the cross has been applied to weapons, swords in particular, since the time of Charlemagne, and was well known being applied to scabbards, blades and pommels. It was inherently a protective and talismanic symbol, as well as one of piety and faith, being used widely and not necessarily only by these orders, as well suggested by Marc.
As far as the use of silver, the precious metal, in embellishing a sword pommel with a cross in this sense, I personally do not see this as an element of 'personal adornment' but more reflective of reverence as used in many often seemingly ostentatious religious vestments.

While the idea of the Templars as austere warrior monks seems to be based on thier humble origins as 'The Poor Knights of Christ' as the Templars were originally known, it seems that later more latitude might have become afforded to thier wear, especially toward the sword as the key weapon in the codes of chivalry. It does not seem that a simple cross placed on a pommel, for application as described, and which corresponded to the cross worn on thier mantle, would be considered personal adornment. Just as changes in the equipment worn by these forces were encouraged by the Pope himself, the placement of a cross, in the precious metal worthy of the sword, which was considered in effect a Holy instrument, would seem well placed.

Leaving the focus on the cross on the pommel, I would once more try to look into the markings on the blade, which I have brought up previously and for some reason does not seem to be attracting any interest.

I will express this again to prevent everyone having to have to search through the posts....the III....III with indeterminable marking between is in the same configuration as these type markings on Frankish swords, namely thise marked INGELRII for one, of the 10th century and later. Although this blade seems clearly of 13th century form, why are these markings on this blade, and might there be significant clues in that feature?

Cesare, I really do want to thank you again for bringing this fascinating sword to our forum! and quite honestly, along with the others Im sure, am anxious to see other pieces you are researching.
Might I implore you once again, to give more closeups of the markings to which I have referred?

All very best regards,
Jim