New Kilij

Yannis · 17th June 2005, 10:30 PM

Dear Ariel

If you ever want to sell it please think your friend Yannis

My opinion about this is:

The blade is second half of 19th century and so goes the rest of it.

Silver engravings of this artistic style was in use in Greece so it is possibly Greek. I asume who was the owner (not the person but the rank) but I have to check my books.

The knot is not what you think. It is a kind of belt (I dont know the english word). This kilij was hanged from the shoulder.

I wish I had it

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 02:34 AM

There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs.

Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

ham · 18th June 2005, 04:54 AM

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 08:06 AM

It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard.

That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all.

Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

tom hyle · 18th June 2005, 11:34 AM

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please

To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please

To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

Well thats certainly interesting!

Ive never handled a sword with a riveted hilt that was loose (except for crossguards). I get my pitch from an industrial area over here in kuwait. Its black, oily and very smelly I must say.

Rick · 18th June 2005, 03:58 PM

Mark , how did the re-mount of the tulwar blade work out ?
Nice and snug now ?

The grip scales on my karud are as tight as when they were placed there some 150-200 years ago .
They were applied with mastic and rivets .
I have seen some examples of loose grip scales but usually these are on knives/swords that depended solely on rivets to hold them on , many of the scales being wood .

ham · 18th June 2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

ariel · 18th June 2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

Good idea. How strong are they? Do they come in black color?
Any more "permanent" fixative?

ariel · 18th June 2005, 06:38 PM

Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html

He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?

17th June 2005, 10:30 PM	#1
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Dear Ariel If you ever want to sell it please think your friend Yannis My opinion about this is: The blade is second half of 19th century and so goes the rest of it. Silver engravings of this artistic style was in use in Greece so it is possibly Greek. I asume who was the owner (not the person but the rank) but I have to check my books. The knot is not what you think. It is a kind of belt (I dont know the english word). This kilij was hanged from the shoulder. I wish I had it

18th June 2005, 02:34 AM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs. Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

18th June 2005, 04:54 AM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it. The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example. Sincerely, Ham

18th June 2005, 08:06 AM	#4
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard. That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all. Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

18th June 2005, 11:34 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort. M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire. Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

18th June 2005, 03:58 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Mark , how did the re-mount of the tulwar blade work out ? Nice and snug now ? The grip scales on my karud are as tight as when they were placed there some 150-200 years ago . They were applied with mastic and rivets . I have seen some examples of loose grip scales but usually these are on knives/swords that depended solely on rivets to hold them on , many of the scales being wood .

18th June 2005, 06:38 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?