Weighing in...collecting from other cultures...

[fearn]

I'd also add in the CITES argument to this mix (link to CITES thread).

This is an added layer of complexity. Many weapons have ivory, tiger parts, turtle shell, rhino horn and other material from endangered species. Unless you have a provenanced item that pre-dates the CITES ban on that species, you can't move that item out of its homeland. Antiques are exempt from the ban (within the limits of the link above, and they aren't small).

So there is an irony here. When something becomes valuable as an antique, it may also be more able to travel beyond its homeland.

Personally, I'd say that if you're worried about this, you better be worrying about properly curating your collection with the best available techniques. That way, your collections will live on after you pass, and if the descendants of the original owners want them back, they will still be around to go back.

Best,

F

[Nathaniel]

Thank you to all who have contributed you thoughts and experiences so far: Niel, Freebooter, Fern, Vandoo, KuKulzA28, laEspadaAncha, Lew, imas560 & kahnjar1. I think you all have brought up very good points.

Another lament I hear as well as that foreign interest in antiquities also drives up the price out of reach of locals....

or similar that the average person from Country A has to work month or longer to buy the same plane ticket that person from Country B earns in a week.

[KuKulzA28]

You're welcome, and thanks Nathaniel for bringing this up... definitely a very interesting subject. Considering the larger picture and the reasons why and ethical concerns regarding this antique weapon collecting hobby - good thing to discuss. I was actually thinking about this myself at one point a few weeks back... However I myself don't usually own antiques, I would much rather enjoy them and then pass them along to folks who can take much better care of them - like you guys! They can be quite fascinating though...

[Nathaniel]

Here is another interesting case like the Elgin Marbles...but of SEA nature
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/17/us...rt-museum.html

The debate was in heat in 1988 between Thai protesters & US museum supporters regarding a temple lintel from an Khmer temple of Phnom Rung in Buri Ram province along the Thai and Cambodian border that was brought to the USA in 1966 and donated later to Art Institute of Chicago.

One of the most popular Thai bands in modern history, Carabao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_(band)

wrote a song regarding the debate for which the song chorus translates as "Take back Michael Jackson, give us back the Phra Narai!"

Whoa...pretty song lyrics, huh? Yet, I'm not sure if it was meant in humor I have trouble with not laughing...sorry...maybe this would have been more humorous if Micheal were still alive?

Anyways, for your viewing pleasure here is the Carabao music video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u4vgUfDCxQ

It is quite interesting to watch...US military choppers in the intro...some Thai moon walking...check it out.

On a side note, the lead singer of Carabao is also the one who the Thai energy drink Carabao: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_Dang




(aka Carabao Dang....Carabao = Water Buffalo + Dang = Red....ie Red for the color of the drink...it similar to the more well known Thai energy drink: Red Bull, though no relation)

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Here is another interesting case like the Elgin Marbles...but of SEA nature
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/17/us...rt-museum.html

The debate was in heat in 1988 between Thai protesters & US museum supporters regarding a temple lintel from an Khmer temple of Phnom Rung in Buri Ram province along the Thai and Cambodian border that was brought to the USA in 1966 and donated later to Art Institute of Chicago.

One of the most popular Thai bands in modern history, Carabao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_(band)

wrote a song regarding the debate for which the song chorus translates as "Take back Michael Jackson, give us back the Phra Narai!"

Whoa...pretty song lyrics, huh? Yet, I'm not sure if it was meant in humor I have trouble with not laughing...sorry...maybe this would have been more humorous if Micheal were still alive?

Anyways, for your viewing pleasure here is the Carabao music video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u4vgUfDCxQ

It is quite interesting to watch...US military choppers in the intro...some Thai moon walking...check it out.

On a side note, the lead singer of Carabao is also the one who the Thai energy drink Carabao: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_Dang




(aka Carabao Dang....Carabao = Water Buffalo + Dang = Red....ie Red for the color of the drink...it similar to the more well known Thai energy drink: Red Bull, though no relation)

I added the above directly because this came up in a native forum topic about 'competing with foreign collectors'...brining up this debate & music video from 1988. I think it's ironic that Michael Jackson to be the subject of the song as Michael was the one who wrote the song: "Black or White"...and lyrics: "You can be my brother, it don't matter if your black or white!"

[ThePepperSkull]

being on both ends of the spectrum (being a student of various philippine and s.e.a cultures and their appropriate accoutrement, AND being of partly visayan/sulu malay ethnic origin), what I can weigh into this conversation that no one else has is reasoning behind why there are two opposing opinions.

I believe that these differing opinions stem from a different viewpoint, mostly. The funny thing is, I can see merit in both viewpoints, but believe they are both not completely or adequately informed.

Firstly, what we do here (collecting various ethnographic artifacts), from our point of view, comes out of respect for these cultures and demonstrates a keen interest on learning more about them. there's nothing at all nefarious in that. Our goal is knowledge and our methods imply respect. If we did not hold onto these pieces of history, they would be lost on someone who did not appreciate their cultural or historical significance, or maybe worse; they may be taken care of poorly and yet another artifacts will be lost to the ravages of time

However, from the other standpoint, many believe that because there are so many pieces displayed in foreign lands or even in personal collections that it is an implied disrespect to the culture. To have something ripped away from your land during war only to be displayed as a trophy, a symbol of conquest rather than pride. Why not repatriate it to an appropriate museum in its homeland? Why hoard these material things? Why accumulate and accumulate and accumulate so ravenously?

Of course, both of these arguments are very one-domensional and therein lay the problem. A lack of understanding where one or the other comes from can lead to a somewhat skewed and unrealistic perception.

That is why I really appreciate this discussion. We can definitely expand our ways of thinking to include both viewpoints rather than exclude one, and in doing so we can work to understand one another's viewpoints more clearly -- and maybe even change these viewpoints for the better. After all, isn't that level of understanding and intercultural knowledge the essence of what we're all here for? I think so. And for this I am thankful for this discussion, Nathaniel. Great thread.

[KuKulzA28]

Great points Pepperskull.... lack of understanding is the root of many conflicts...
Like they say any good relationship needs good communication!

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

being on both ends of the spectrum (being a student of various philippine and s.e.a cultures and their appropriate accoutrement, AND being of partly visayan/sulu malay ethnic origin), what I can weigh into this conversation that no one else has is reasoning behind why there are two opposing opinions.

I believe that these differing opinions stem from a different viewpoint, mostly. The funny thing is, I can see merit in both viewpoints, but believe they are both not completely or adequately informed.

Firstly, what we do here (collecting various ethnographic artifacts), from our point of view, comes out of respect for these cultures and demonstrates a keen interest on learning more about them. there's nothing at all nefarious in that. Our goal is knowledge and our methods imply respect. If we did not hold onto these pieces of history, they would be lost on someone who did not appreciate their cultural or historical significance, or maybe worse; they may be taken care of poorly and yet another artifacts will be lost to the ravages of time

However, from the other standpoint, many believe that because there are so many pieces displayed in foreign lands or even in personal collections that it is an implied disrespect to the culture. To have something ripped away from your land during war only to be displayed as a trophy, a symbol of conquest rather than pride. Why not repatriate it to an appropriate museum in its homeland? Why hoard these material things? Why accumulate and accumulate and accumulate so ravenously?

Of course, both of these arguments are very one-domensional and therein lay the problem. A lack of understanding where one or the other comes from can lead to a somewhat skewed and unrealistic perception.

That is why I really appreciate this discussion. We can definitely expand our ways of thinking to include both viewpoints rather than exclude one, and in doing so we can work to understand one another's viewpoints more clearly -- and maybe even change these viewpoints for the better. After all, isn't that level of understanding and intercultural knowledge the essence of what we're all here for? I think so. And for this I am thankful for this discussion, Nathaniel. Great thread.

Peppered Skull,

Thank you very much for bring up such good points on the local/native perspective, this is exactly as I wanted, because I know by the very nature of this forum purpose it maybe bias...and the issues posed can easily make people uncomfortable or raise to defense, but that is the very reason why I felt it was important to bring up this topic. I know it will not necessarily change things...or believe that people should send back their precious pieces to their country of origin, but believe it is a good open conversation to have so that perhaps both sides can understand each other better...this was my purpose...this is my goal. To hopefully disarm the situation even if just a little.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Peppered Skull,

Thank you very much for bring up such good points on the local/native perspective, this is exactly as I wanted, because I know by the very nature of this forum purpose it maybe bias...and the issues posed can easily make people uncomfortable or raise to defense, but that is the very reason why I felt it was important to bring up this topic. I know it will not necessarily change things...or believe that people should send back their precious pieces to their country of origin, but believe it is a good open conversation to have so that perhaps both sides can understand each other better...this was my purpose...this is my goal. To hopefully disarm the situation even if just a little.

Nathaniel

I really don't think the nature of this forum is bias in any way shape or form and there is no situation to disarm here. We are all here to share our knowlege with others concerning the study of ethnographic weapons so let us stick to that idea.

Lew