Naval sword- opinions,please

M ELEY · 17th June 2005, 09:44 AM

Andrew, you are right about the similarity in the blades, especially with the pitting (I wonder if yours might not have seen sea service to be pitted in this way- salt air and all. I still believe that mine has a European blade, though...

M ELEY · 17th June 2005, 10:02 AM

Tom, sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. I've been doing research via Gilkerson's book "Borders Away" and Annis' "Naval Swords" and I'm still convinced that my sword is the real deal- that is, a private purchase cutlass for a merchantman ship, possibly ca 1800-20. These swords came in all shapes,sizes. Many were crude, having been repaired in the field, refitted, resharpened, painted with pitch, etc.
Now-about the sword. The iron grip fits the patterns of 1800-20, the rouned dish guard is cruder than the ebay pic lets on (i.e. I doubt its machine-made). The diamond-cut to the hilt does go right uo to the blade edge. The whole hilt construction is odd/unique, as most of these had a separate grip with piened tang where the sheet guard comes into it. This hilt appears to be constructed as a whole, with the grip/guard/bowl all as one piece (the only other possibility is that it,too, is welded with brass, but if it is, it is lost under many layers of old marine pitch/paint of the era). If this is the construction of the hilt(whole), then I suppose that the blade might have been slid in place and brazed with brass to hold it firm. I believe that the blade is European and of the period. Interesting items, these private purchase sea swords...kind of ethnogrphic in their variety!

M ELEY · 18th June 2005, 10:13 PM

Tom, I know you know much about construction and smithing of weapons. It does appear that the hilt on this sea sword was slid into a constructed hilt and then brass poured into the socket to secure it. Have you ever heard of this process being done? Time period and/or country of origin? Just read in Annis' book that many sea swords were made from brass, as it doesn't corrode nearly as fast as traditional iron does (the reason so many naval swords were painted with pitch- glad they chose black paint BTW. Can you imagine if some joker decided on pink!), so perhaps that's why this is the reasoning behind the construction of the joint...

not2sharp · 18th June 2005, 11:36 PM

This looks like an 18th century American Sabre. There is an example shown with a very similar blade on plate #269 of Arms and Armour of Colonial America, Harold Peterson. Also, plate #256 has examples with similar hilts.

n2s

M ELEY · 19th June 2005, 03:54 AM

Thanks, n2s. That was my feeling as well, but I wasn't too sure. I still don't have Peterson's book...I'll have to check out a copy via library loan. Thanks for responding. BTW, if it truly is American colonial, I'll be quite pleased!!

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 10:14 AM

The most similar thing I'm familiar with as an affixing method is more usually done with aluminum (modern, of course) or lead/lead alloys. With poured brass into a hollow handle rather than into a mold forming a solid one-piece cast brass handle, it seems unusual. Don't get me wrong; neither do I know everything nor are unusual things unusual

see if you follow that one

The general type of the handle, hollow metal, ribbed, etc. is certainly a thing I'd seen, fairly often and in many verieties, but usually with the tang just passed thru and piened. This attachment method should be stronger, and as noted, should help keep the tang from rusting. I'd think the sword is fairly handle-heavy? But the narrow grip and fairly thin bowl may keep things within reason, and even the cut-out may have to do with a balancing concern (pure speculation; such holes are fairly usual, except that this one goes all the way to the tang, and so seems added on or otherwise nonprofessional/unusual in some way)? I'm unclear as to what metal the hilt is made of; is it brass, or iron? I'm right with you on the private issue cutlasses/hangers, the maritime ones often having variously ship-board made hilts, many sharing features in common with Oceaninc East Asian swords (thin sheet metal knuckle guards ala Visayan swords, occasional habiki-like bolsters......), and often partaking of traditional sailors' crafts such as scrimshaw, engraving, knotwork. I often enjoy the quality on Western military/overculture swords, but I really find the folk level plastic art more interesting in general. It is often spoken of as if this did not exist in Europe, as if the overculture/industrial culture WERE European culture; I do not believe this is accurate; there seems to be (to this day, even) a strong strain of peasant/rural/underclass/lowtech culture that is often ignored or looked down upon, but which I find quite interesting and interestingly comparable to other traditional/preindustrial cultures; this is certainly notable of its material culture, including blades, which are more often with a soft body and harder edge (often welded/inlaid), and as I've metioned about hangers, more often of wedge cross section, than military/government/etc. swords. And it's also interesting how it interfaces with foreign material culture through international sailor subculture on the empire of the waves. I find user made/field made dress particularly interesting; sometimes it is of good or even particular quality, and other times I feel compelled to remove it from a good blade and replace it for nonfunctionality.....This one looks perhaps professionally made, but user-affixed? Just a guess. Sounds like it's pretty dang solid, anyway, which is a big good in a sword handle

M ELEY · 20th June 2005, 03:52 AM

I absolutely concur about the subculture of European items(not just swords) and would also add most Western "colonial-types" made in the field. I have been really taken by Spanish colonial pieces ever since I landed a nice Spanish Caribbean sword (or Spanish Moroccan, if Jim wishes to challenge me on this one!!LOL

, as these pieces truly fit into the ethnographic catagory by their very unique construction, artistic lisence and folk-artsy appeal. The handle on this sword is rather heavy, but balances fairly well I think with its relatively light sheet metal hilt. I hate to ask a really stupid question, but how does one tell if the hilt is brass or iron if it is covered in black-pitch paint? I would hate to scrape off any of the finish, as this is one of the few pieces of evidence that shows that it was made all together in antiquity (not a piece-meal sword!). Is there a test one can do with a magnet or something? (yes, I'm stupid when it comes to alloys!).

18th June 2005, 10:13 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Tom Hyle- a question Tom, I know you know much about construction and smithing of weapons. It does appear that the hilt on this sea sword was slid into a constructed hilt and then brass poured into the socket to secure it. Have you ever heard of this process being done? Time period and/or country of origin? Just read in Annis' book that many sea swords were made from brass, as it doesn't corrode nearly as fast as traditional iron does (the reason so many naval swords were painted with pitch- glad they chose black paint BTW. Can you imagine if some joker decided on pink!), so perhaps that's why this is the reasoning behind the construction of the joint...

17th June 2005, 09:44 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Andrew, you are right about the similarity in the blades, especially with the pitting (I wonder if yours might not have seen sea service to be pitted in this way- salt air and all. I still believe that mine has a European blade, though...

17th June 2005, 10:02 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Tom, sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. I've been doing research via Gilkerson's book "Borders Away" and Annis' "Naval Swords" and I'm still convinced that my sword is the real deal- that is, a private purchase cutlass for a merchantman ship, possibly ca 1800-20. These swords came in all shapes,sizes. Many were crude, having been repaired in the field, refitted, resharpened, painted with pitch, etc. Now-about the sword. The iron grip fits the patterns of 1800-20, the rouned dish guard is cruder than the ebay pic lets on (i.e. I doubt its machine-made). The diamond-cut to the hilt does go right uo to the blade edge. The whole hilt construction is odd/unique, as most of these had a separate grip with piened tang where the sheet guard comes into it. This hilt appears to be constructed as a whole, with the grip/guard/bowl all as one piece (the only other possibility is that it,too, is welded with brass, but if it is, it is lost under many layers of old marine pitch/paint of the era). If this is the construction of the hilt(whole), then I suppose that the blade might have been slid in place and brazed with brass to hold it firm. I believe that the blade is European and of the period. Interesting items, these private purchase sea swords...kind of ethnogrphic in their variety!

18th June 2005, 11:36 PM	#4
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	This looks like an 18th century American Sabre. There is an example shown with a very similar blade on plate #269 of Arms and Armour of Colonial America, Harold Peterson. Also, plate #256 has examples with similar hilts. n2s

19th June 2005, 03:54 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Thanks, n2s. That was my feeling as well, but I wasn't too sure. I still don't have Peterson's book...I'll have to check out a copy via library loan. Thanks for responding. BTW, if it truly is American colonial, I'll be quite pleased!!

19th June 2005, 10:14 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The most similar thing I'm familiar with as an affixing method is more usually done with aluminum (modern, of course) or lead/lead alloys. With poured brass into a hollow handle rather than into a mold forming a solid one-piece cast brass handle, it seems unusual. Don't get me wrong; neither do I know everything nor are unusual things unusual see if you follow that one The general type of the handle, hollow metal, ribbed, etc. is certainly a thing I'd seen, fairly often and in many verieties, but usually with the tang just passed thru and piened. This attachment method should be stronger, and as noted, should help keep the tang from rusting. I'd think the sword is fairly handle-heavy? But the narrow grip and fairly thin bowl may keep things within reason, and even the cut-out may have to do with a balancing concern (pure speculation; such holes are fairly usual, except that this one goes all the way to the tang, and so seems added on or otherwise nonprofessional/unusual in some way)? I'm unclear as to what metal the hilt is made of; is it brass, or iron? I'm right with you on the private issue cutlasses/hangers, the maritime ones often having variously ship-board made hilts, many sharing features in common with Oceaninc East Asian swords (thin sheet metal knuckle guards ala Visayan swords, occasional habiki-like bolsters......), and often partaking of traditional sailors' crafts such as scrimshaw, engraving, knotwork. I often enjoy the quality on Western military/overculture swords, but I really find the folk level plastic art more interesting in general. It is often spoken of as if this did not exist in Europe, as if the overculture/industrial culture WERE European culture; I do not believe this is accurate; there seems to be (to this day, even) a strong strain of peasant/rural/underclass/lowtech culture that is often ignored or looked down upon, but which I find quite interesting and interestingly comparable to other traditional/preindustrial cultures; this is certainly notable of its material culture, including blades, which are more often with a soft body and harder edge (often welded/inlaid), and as I've metioned about hangers, more often of wedge cross section, than military/government/etc. swords. And it's also interesting how it interfaces with foreign material culture through international sailor subculture on the empire of the waves. I find user made/field made dress particularly interesting; sometimes it is of good or even particular quality, and other times I feel compelled to remove it from a good blade and replace it for nonfunctionality.....This one looks perhaps professionally made, but user-affixed? Just a guess. Sounds like it's pretty dang solid, anyway, which is a big good in a sword handle

20th June 2005, 03:52 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	I absolutely concur about the subculture of European items(not just swords) and would also add most Western "colonial-types" made in the field. I have been really taken by Spanish colonial pieces ever since I landed a nice Spanish Caribbean sword (or Spanish Moroccan, if Jim wishes to challenge me on this one!!LOL , as these pieces truly fit into the ethnographic catagory by their very unique construction, artistic lisence and folk-artsy appeal. The handle on this sword is rather heavy, but balances fairly well I think with its relatively light sheet metal hilt. I hate to ask a really stupid question, but how does one tell if the hilt is brass or iron if it is covered in black-pitch paint? I would hate to scrape off any of the finish, as this is one of the few pieces of evidence that shows that it was made all together in antiquity (not a piece-meal sword!). Is there a test one can do with a magnet or something? (yes, I'm stupid when it comes to alloys!).