A warrior's keris

BluErf · 18th December 2004, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronpakis

...the wood looks to[o] new to me...

While I will not defend the keris anymore, here's one for the wood -- ronpakis -- look more carefully at the wood again. The sheath has pretty good age to it, with patina and age cracks, and as I have mentioned, it has 3 old but very good repairs to the wood.

The wood is not new, man! You have got to learn how to tell new wood from old wood, and start identifying the various types of wood used in making keris sheaths. It will help you better identify the origins, and sometimes, the authenticity of a keris.
(pendoko is new, I agree)

I may be primarily a 'blade person', but I have grown to love wood more and more, so pardon me for this post.

As for your unfortunate incident with the fake Madurese ivory handle, I'm sad to hear that. Be more careful in the future, and there's always no harm in discussing with or asking other more experienced collectors.

ronpakis · 18th December 2004, 03:56 PM

hello bluerf

its nothing personal, im reffering to the photos and most of the time its not clear tot see, i dont doubt your opinion.
about the warrior aspect: i think it could be used as a weapon but not primarily then you will use a "real" weapon like a sundang with a real fighting handle (fitted strong to the handle) i agree its not common to make it razorsharpe.
i'm not putting the keris to the ground its just my opinion, i like a keris when it is made traditional it doesnt have to be old. i did not say i dislike the keris

nechesh · 18th December 2004, 05:19 PM

Ronpakis, there seems to be much confusion around the intention and purpose of the keris. It seems to me that it did not originate as a weapon only to be used for statis and ceremony, but developed to that point over time. I don't believe this development was universal to all areas of Indonesia and it seems that certain groups, such as the Bugis held on to its use as a weapon longer than, say, the Javanese, where the keris was elevated to a high status art form. It is my understanding that the Bugis were known for actually using the keris in battle. I also suspect that certain Balinese keris also saw some battle. As for securing handles for combat, you would be surprised what a bit of pitch will do. I have a Bali keris that when i received it i swore it was epoxyed to the hulu, but after heating the blade a bit i was able to disconnect them and found it was attached with pitch. Like Blu's Bugis keris, this keris also exhibits nicks on the blade that indicate it was used to parry another blade, i assume in some kind of fight. It is important to realize that attitudes about the purpose of the keris have evolved over many centuries and in different manners depending upon the precise keris bearing people from which they originate. It is very difficult to make certain blanket statements about keris such as it is not a "real" weapon. Trust me, i have keris that can kill you quite efficiently.

ronpakis · 19th December 2004, 11:27 AM

hello nescesh

of course almost ervery keris can be used as a weapon but im only wondering about its primarily function. there are more efficient weapons. compare a sewar to a keris from the same region.
a piece of cloth can be enough to fix the hadle to the blade just dont pull back.

nechesh · 19th December 2004, 04:47 PM

Well Ron, you seem to have missed my point on a couple of levels. One is that the primary function of the keris has evolved over the centuries and not in the same manner in all parts of the Malay area. There have also been different types of keris made specifically for different functions. Keris sajen and keris picit for instance were certainly not made as battle worthy blades. Many other blades were made to be purely talismanic and as time pasted the majority of keris became magickal/artistic/status cultural items rather than weapons of war. But it is my understanding that certain cultures within Indonesia were more apt to use the keris as a weapon than others, the Bugis among them and in Bali to some extent. I would love to hear factual and sustainable evidence either way on this issue.
And perhaps you did not understand my comments about pitch. It is a substance that was used to "glue" a keris to it's hilt when a stronger bond than a piece of cloth wrapped around the pesi was necessary (i.e. in battle). The hilt is then secure and the keris can be safely pulled back without worry. By heating the blade the pitch will become soft and the wilah can then be seperated from the hulu if the owner chooses. As i stated, one of my Bali keris came to me this way. There are substainal nicks on the ridge of the sogokan that look like the blade parried a sharp object at one time, and the end of the blade was broken off at some point (this appears to be an old repair) and reshaped to create a shorter keris. Now, all this damage might have taken place during some cultural/social function, but it seems to me unlikely. Keep in mind that, not unlike the English and the French in their wars in the Americas, the Dutch were very good at getting various Indonesian tribes to fight on there side against their Indonesian brothers, so the keris bearer was not always up against a well armed dutch soldier, but may end up fighting another keris bearer.
Certainly, for the most part, you are correct that the main function of the keris has become non-military. But you simply can not discount that some keris have been used in battle and were meant to be used that way.

ronpakis · 20th December 2004, 01:36 PM

Hello nescesh,

i did not missed your point i can agree to a certain level, the bugis and balinese used keris sometimes as a weapon but to my opinion this only happened when there was nothing else at hands. In the tropenmuseum in amsterdam there is a balinese keris of the absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc, it was captured during the attack of the dutch at bali somewhere late 19 century or early 20th. the officer who took it was attacked by a balinese man with it. he used it because it was his last savier (this last is my interpretation why use such a keris for any other purpose than defend your life).
myself i have a maduran keris wich is rather large with pamor and more important to this subject: the blade was heated for about 30 cm, like japanese blades. Of course this happened to make it stronger and sharper. you can clearly see the spots where the clay didnt protect the steel anymore. it is extremely sharp but it is impossible to use it as a slasher because the peksi would break and this hardening is not needed for thrusting. (this raises yet another question.........)
i also know what pitch is used for but it is not proved to be put there by the first owner. it could be a later addition for example when the dutch attacked bali, and the use "whatever you have" spirit came up!
most bali keris handles are big, now i'm not small 1,88 cm long, normal hands, and those grips are to large for my hands, (not to hold but to use) most indonesain men are at least to my opinion smaller than the average western guy > smaller hands.
as for bugis: the pistol like grip is not a very logical solution if you are planning to stab someone. it just does not fit your hands right.
You are right when you are saying that the dutch used the locals against their own people, but did they make keris for this purpose or did they use their "own" keris?
so my conclusion would be: used as a weapon? possible, but only when there is nothing else at hands, definitly not created for this purpose.

About the shortening of the blade: there are a lot of keris who are shortened, to my opinion this was possibly done because the keris was partly damaged by corrosion. dirt and perhaps water in the sheath, destroyed the point. to make it look better just cut a bit of.

i'm not saying you are wrong but i just have my doubts.

have a nice christmas!!

BluErf · 20th December 2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronpakis

...
as for bugis: the pistol like grip is not a very logical solution if you are planning to stab someone. it just does not fit your hands right...

Hi Ronpakis, the Bugis pistol grip handle is probably one of the earliest studies in ergonomics. It is perfectly made for thrusting. It moulds into the hand and keeps it in a comfortable postion for delivering a strong thrust.

You can look at the pistol grips on epee and foil blades for modern fencing. Its the same principle.

Just to be sure, pardon me for asking, but has anyone shared with you how the bugis keris handle is held correctly?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

18th December 2004, 03:56 PM	#2
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	hello bluerf its nothing personal, im reffering to the photos and most of the time its not clear tot see, i dont doubt your opinion. about the warrior aspect: i think it could be used as a weapon but not primarily then you will use a "real" weapon like a sundang with a real fighting handle (fitted strong to the handle) i agree its not common to make it razorsharpe. i'm not putting the keris to the ground its just my opinion, i like a keris when it is made traditional it doesnt have to be old. i did not say i dislike the keris

18th December 2004, 05:19 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Ronpakis, there seems to be much confusion around the intention and purpose of the keris. It seems to me that it did not originate as a weapon only to be used for statis and ceremony, but developed to that point over time. I don't believe this development was universal to all areas of Indonesia and it seems that certain groups, such as the Bugis held on to its use as a weapon longer than, say, the Javanese, where the keris was elevated to a high status art form. It is my understanding that the Bugis were known for actually using the keris in battle. I also suspect that certain Balinese keris also saw some battle. As for securing handles for combat, you would be surprised what a bit of pitch will do. I have a Bali keris that when i received it i swore it was epoxyed to the hulu, but after heating the blade a bit i was able to disconnect them and found it was attached with pitch. Like Blu's Bugis keris, this keris also exhibits nicks on the blade that indicate it was used to parry another blade, i assume in some kind of fight. It is important to realize that attitudes about the purpose of the keris have evolved over many centuries and in different manners depending upon the precise keris bearing people from which they originate. It is very difficult to make certain blanket statements about keris such as it is not a "real" weapon. Trust me, i have keris that can kill you quite efficiently.

19th December 2004, 11:27 AM	#4
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	hello nescesh of course almost ervery keris can be used as a weapon but im only wondering about its primarily function. there are more efficient weapons. compare a sewar to a keris from the same region. a piece of cloth can be enough to fix the hadle to the blade just dont pull back.

19th December 2004, 04:47 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Ron, you seem to have missed my point on a couple of levels. One is that the primary function of the keris has evolved over the centuries and not in the same manner in all parts of the Malay area. There have also been different types of keris made specifically for different functions. Keris sajen and keris picit for instance were certainly not made as battle worthy blades. Many other blades were made to be purely talismanic and as time pasted the majority of keris became magickal/artistic/status cultural items rather than weapons of war. But it is my understanding that certain cultures within Indonesia were more apt to use the keris as a weapon than others, the Bugis among them and in Bali to some extent. I would love to hear factual and sustainable evidence either way on this issue. And perhaps you did not understand my comments about pitch. It is a substance that was used to "glue" a keris to it's hilt when a stronger bond than a piece of cloth wrapped around the pesi was necessary (i.e. in battle). The hilt is then secure and the keris can be safely pulled back without worry. By heating the blade the pitch will become soft and the wilah can then be seperated from the hulu if the owner chooses. As i stated, one of my Bali keris came to me this way. There are substainal nicks on the ridge of the sogokan that look like the blade parried a sharp object at one time, and the end of the blade was broken off at some point (this appears to be an old repair) and reshaped to create a shorter keris. Now, all this damage might have taken place during some cultural/social function, but it seems to me unlikely. Keep in mind that, not unlike the English and the French in their wars in the Americas, the Dutch were very good at getting various Indonesian tribes to fight on there side against their Indonesian brothers, so the keris bearer was not always up against a well armed dutch soldier, but may end up fighting another keris bearer. Certainly, for the most part, you are correct that the main function of the keris has become non-military. But you simply can not discount that some keris have been used in battle and were meant to be used that way.

20th December 2004, 01:36 PM	#6
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	Hello nescesh, i did not missed your point i can agree to a certain level, the bugis and balinese used keris sometimes as a weapon but to my opinion this only happened when there was nothing else at hands. In the tropenmuseum in amsterdam there is a balinese keris of the absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc, it was captured during the attack of the dutch at bali somewhere late 19 century or early 20th. the officer who took it was attacked by a balinese man with it. he used it because it was his last savier (this last is my interpretation why use such a keris for any other purpose than defend your life). myself i have a maduran keris wich is rather large with pamor and more important to this subject: the blade was heated for about 30 cm, like japanese blades. Of course this happened to make it stronger and sharper. you can clearly see the spots where the clay didnt protect the steel anymore. it is extremely sharp but it is impossible to use it as a slasher because the peksi would break and this hardening is not needed for thrusting. (this raises yet another question.........) i also know what pitch is used for but it is not proved to be put there by the first owner. it could be a later addition for example when the dutch attacked bali, and the use "whatever you have" spirit came up! most bali keris handles are big, now i'm not small 1,88 cm long, normal hands, and those grips are to large for my hands, (not to hold but to use) most indonesain men are at least to my opinion smaller than the average western guy > smaller hands. as for bugis: the pistol like grip is not a very logical solution if you are planning to stab someone. it just does not fit your hands right. You are right when you are saying that the dutch used the locals against their own people, but did they make keris for this purpose or did they use their "own" keris? so my conclusion would be: used as a weapon? possible, but only when there is nothing else at hands, definitly not created for this purpose. About the shortening of the blade: there are a lot of keris who are shortened, to my opinion this was possibly done because the keris was partly damaged by corrosion. dirt and perhaps water in the sheath, destroyed the point. to make it look better just cut a bit of. i'm not saying you are wrong but i just have my doubts. have a nice christmas!!