Decoration on Indian hilts

B.I · 14th June 2005, 06:40 PM

jens' quest for the source and history of indian decoration is ever going and commendable. its an uphill battle that he continues to fight and i think we are all guilty of 'leaving him to it'. he is right in that the answers may be out there waiting for someone to stumble across them, or put the data known and as yet uncovered into the correct order and yield a plausable answer. hendley showed a personal interest in indian decoration, but his taste was the art of the day, and not antiquaty and so, although he may have been in the position to find out at the time, he stayed with the current arts and so his books tell a very 19thC story.
i have always veered away from symbolism as its never been my chosen route for knowledge. jens 'botany' quest may indeed show some answers, and i will be the first to crack open a bottle. my route has always been iconography in comparative arts, which is a lifetimes study in itself.
however, i'd like to steer off on a slight tangent from jens post, in order to open up another possible avenue which i've have been looking into.
the decorative art of rangoli is still alive in india and abundant in folk festivals and folk art. the word itself - 'Rangoli' is a sanskrit word which means a creative expression of art through the use of color. this art, of hindu origin, has adorned buildings, banners and textiles for many centuries. the moghuls, in their very 'modern' attitude incorporated hindu art into their own and you tend to find much hindu influence in moghul architecture.
i've attached an image od rangoli designs, which some may find familiar. note, the second row, third from left. this design is apparant on many 19thC pommels. then there is the 'tuban ornament' design etc.
as fashion tended to dictate a period in time, i thought that to trace back rangoli designs may attempt to pry out some answers. what i've always looked for is a way to verify and benchmark a date. architecture is one of the most reliable sources and there are a few (myself included) that have been looking into this for some time. maybe rangloi designs were dictated by a fashion trend and if this design did get incorporated into weapon design, there is a chance a connection can be made. the islamic world has been edging this way for many years and a weapon shows the same influence in decoration as a ewer.
something to chew over.
btw, unfortunately, the illustration i've attached infuriatingly has no description for the individual designs. i think that would be too easy

Jens Nordlunde · 15th June 2005, 02:13 PM

[img]file:///C:/WIN98SE/TEMP/moz-screenshot.jpg[/img] BI, thank you for the hint, it is most interesting, and I recognise several of the drawings from the tulwar discs.

Rangoli also known as Kolam in South India, Chowkpurana in North India, Madana in Rajasthan, Aripana in Bihar, Alpana in Bengal and by other names in other parts of India, it is the ancient Hindu religious floor art made by the women, and learned from generation to generation. Rangoli/Kolam/Alpana/…. Looks different in the different Indian States, using flour, henna, and petals from various flowers such as oleanders, cosmos, zenia, chrysanthemums, and green leaves which provide the artist the ability to work out various patterns and colours. It is mostly made in geometrical patterns, but can also be made as temples or animals. In some parts of India it is still used daily, being made very early in the morning and being swept away in the evening, but to day it is mostly used at big celebrations.

To make the picture of the hilt complete I should also have shown the upper and lower part of the disc – here are the pictures.

Rick · 15th June 2005, 03:08 PM

Hi Jens , B.I. ,

A possible avenue to explore in the area of interpretation of floral and other Indian decoration may be to study the art of Mehndi in some depth .

This art continues as we all know into the present and possibly meanings and or talismanic interpretations may be found there with a little digging .

Just a thought .

Rick

B.I · 15th June 2005, 03:52 PM

hi rick,
i agree that all aspects of indian art should be thought about, but also feel that there must be a historical benchmark found. as the art of body painting can only be an oral or stylistic transgression, the design taken from current (relatively) trends, it would be hard to use this in dating old weapons, past the 19thC.
my rangoli route is much the same, except that the rangoli designs do appear in old architecture. if they were painted using the style of the time, and we can narrow this time down to decades, as apposed the the 'centuries' normally associated with indian dating, then we can try and transpose this dating into similar styles on other aspects of art ie. weapon decoration.
its all a little loose but these are desperate times :-)
unless we can find a 300 year old body, preserved with its henna tattooing of course

B.I · 15th June 2005, 03:53 PM

btw,
nice photography jens

Jens Nordlunde · 15th June 2005, 04:50 PM

Hi Rick, I think you must have been browsing, but you are right, the different patterns most likely have been unchanged for centuries, and this is very interesting as the same goes for architecture, textiles, pottery, wood cuts and many other forms of decoration – our only problem is to understand the meaning – and we do fail in this respect.

Hi BI, Maybe Ann will ‘bring’ us such a decorated body, or maybe she even knows of one, I would not be surprised. Thanks for the comment on the pictures.

Ann do you know of such a body?

Rick · 15th June 2005, 05:12 PM

Hi Jens , I was not browsing , my Wife does a little of this art and has a few books that cover many many designs .

14th June 2005, 06:40 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jens' quest for the source and history of indian decoration is ever going and commendable. its an uphill battle that he continues to fight and i think we are all guilty of 'leaving him to it'. he is right in that the answers may be out there waiting for someone to stumble across them, or put the data known and as yet uncovered into the correct order and yield a plausable answer. hendley showed a personal interest in indian decoration, but his taste was the art of the day, and not antiquaty and so, although he may have been in the position to find out at the time, he stayed with the current arts and so his books tell a very 19thC story. i have always veered away from symbolism as its never been my chosen route for knowledge. jens 'botany' quest may indeed show some answers, and i will be the first to crack open a bottle. my route has always been iconography in comparative arts, which is a lifetimes study in itself. however, i'd like to steer off on a slight tangent from jens post, in order to open up another possible avenue which i've have been looking into. the decorative art of rangoli is still alive in india and abundant in folk festivals and folk art. the word itself - 'Rangoli' is a sanskrit word which means a creative expression of art through the use of color. this art, of hindu origin, has adorned buildings, banners and textiles for many centuries. the moghuls, in their very 'modern' attitude incorporated hindu art into their own and you tend to find much hindu influence in moghul architecture. i've attached an image od rangoli designs, which some may find familiar. note, the second row, third from left. this design is apparant on many 19thC pommels. then there is the 'tuban ornament' design etc. as fashion tended to dictate a period in time, i thought that to trace back rangoli designs may attempt to pry out some answers. what i've always looked for is a way to verify and benchmark a date. architecture is one of the most reliable sources and there are a few (myself included) that have been looking into this for some time. maybe rangloi designs were dictated by a fashion trend and if this design did get incorporated into weapon design, there is a chance a connection can be made. the islamic world has been edging this way for many years and a weapon shows the same influence in decoration as a ewer. something to chew over. btw, unfortunately, the illustration i've attached infuriatingly has no description for the individual designs. i think that would be too easy Attached Images

15th June 2005, 02:13 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	[img]file:///C:/WIN98SE/TEMP/moz-screenshot.jpg[/img] BI, thank you for the hint, it is most interesting, and I recognise several of the drawings from the tulwar discs. Rangoli also known as Kolam in South India, Chowkpurana in North India, Madana in Rajasthan, Aripana in Bihar, Alpana in Bengal and by other names in other parts of India, it is the ancient Hindu religious floor art made by the women, and learned from generation to generation. Rangoli/Kolam/Alpana/…. Looks different in the different Indian States, using flour, henna, and petals from various flowers such as oleanders, cosmos, zenia, chrysanthemums, and green leaves which provide the artist the ability to work out various patterns and colours. It is mostly made in geometrical patterns, but can also be made as temples or animals. In some parts of India it is still used daily, being made very early in the morning and being swept away in the evening, but to day it is mostly used at big celebrations. To make the picture of the hilt complete I should also have shown the upper and lower part of the disc – here are the pictures. Attached Images

15th June 2005, 03:08 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Hi Jens , B.I. , A possible avenue to explore in the area of interpretation of floral and other Indian decoration may be to study the art of Mehndi in some depth . This art continues as we all know into the present and possibly meanings and or talismanic interpretations may be found there with a little digging . Just a thought . Rick

15th June 2005, 03:52 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, i agree that all aspects of indian art should be thought about, but also feel that there must be a historical benchmark found. as the art of body painting can only be an oral or stylistic transgression, the design taken from current (relatively) trends, it would be hard to use this in dating old weapons, past the 19thC. my rangoli route is much the same, except that the rangoli designs do appear in old architecture. if they were painted using the style of the time, and we can narrow this time down to decades, as apposed the the 'centuries' normally associated with indian dating, then we can try and transpose this dating into similar styles on other aspects of art ie. weapon decoration. its all a little loose but these are desperate times :-) unless we can find a 300 year old body, preserved with its henna tattooing of course

15th June 2005, 03:53 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	btw, nice photography jens

15th June 2005, 04:50 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, I think you must have been browsing, but you are right, the different patterns most likely have been unchanged for centuries, and this is very interesting as the same goes for architecture, textiles, pottery, wood cuts and many other forms of decoration – our only problem is to understand the meaning – and we do fail in this respect. Hi BI, Maybe Ann will ‘bring’ us such a decorated body, or maybe she even knows of one, I would not be surprised. Thanks for the comment on the pictures. Ann do you know of such a body?

15th June 2005, 05:12 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Hi Jens , I was not browsing , my Wife does a little of this art and has a few books that cover many many designs .