Ancestor hilt or tourist piece?

sirek · 14th September 2010, 07:57 PM

saw today in an auction a sirih hand crusher with a similar hilt, perhaps
the hilt is from a sirih-crusher?

David · 14th September 2010, 10:10 PM

Like Sirek i am also wondering if this hilt was always intended to serve as a keris hilt. Here is a handle i bought a few years back that was listed as a keris hilt, though i was always pretty sure it was meant for some other implement such as a sirih crusher. Bought it anyway because it was only $5 bucks.

Rick · 14th September 2010, 10:59 PM

That Singha in horn you have, David; I always figured that was a betel crusher handle .

David · 14th September 2010, 11:27 PM

Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

PenangsangII · 15th September 2010, 03:12 AM

It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important.

I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

David · 15th September 2010, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important.

I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

I don't think anyone has commented on whether it matters or not, simply trying to determine what it's origins.

Alam Shah · 15th September 2010, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

Hmmm.. I thought it looks a little like Sumatran Batak.. but maybe not..

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2010, 04:37 AM

Actually Penangsang, "sadak" in Javanese is the betel leaf when it has been rolled into a point with lime in it, ready for chewing. When the bride meets the groom at wedding ceremony, they both throw a sadak onto the floor.

These pestles pictured are for crushing lime and are called "pelecok", from the word "lecok" which becomes "nglecok" : to crush, "dilecok" : crushed.

When you think about it, yes, of course a sadak can overcome invulnerability, because friendship overcomes invulnerability and a sadak can be offered in friendship. Words do not always mean what they might appear to mean.

In Indonesian, which as we know has its origin in Malay as it is spoken in South Sumatra, "gobek" refers to the entire mortar + pestle that is used to crush a complete betel chew to make it easier to consume. I do not know what the pestle alone is called in Indonesian.

PenangsangII · 15th September 2010, 06:05 AM

Ah... yes, you are right Alan, I stand corrected... sadak is the rolled betel leave, and (was said) used by Jaka Tingkir to kill Dadung Awuk. And I also understand that words do not always mean what they might appear to mean, as the duel with Dadung Awok mentioned could just be a metaphor of what jaka Tingkir had done to warrant a punishment (stripped of his position and outcast).

And you are also right about gobek

back to the topic, IMPO, keris of pusoko standard among wong ndeso does not really care about aesthetic, compatibility blade to wrongko or ukiran. As Mrwizard pointed out earlier, the hilt struck very close resemblance to tau-tau statue of Toraja, i think the blade and hilt originated in Sulawesi.

Though Toraja people are not keris bearers, some of their pusakas are actually keris, made in South Sulawesi (ref: Kris Disk by Karsten Sejr Jensen)

David · 15th September 2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmmm.. I thought it looks a little like Sumatran Batak.. but maybe not..

Well, i think mine definitely looks Batak. See the statue below. I also made the assumption that Mr.Wizard's hilt depicted a woman, not based on the hair style as much as the breasts, so i am not so sure that this is a priest. Of course i might be misreading these clues. This statue is Batak and there are obvious connects to my hilt in the hair style. Mr. Wizard's is stylistically rougher, but seems to depict a similar figure.

Alam Shah · 15th September 2010, 04:48 PM

Ok, disregard the 'priest-like' comment.. the breasts looks more woman-like..

Looking in Bambang Harsrinuksmo's 'Ensiklopedi Keris', pg 500.. there are 2 examples of ancestor hilts from Nusa Tenggara Timur.. in a different pose, but worksmanship of similar type.. which indicate that besides Sumatra, these type of hilts, do exist elsewhere in the Indonesian Archipelago.

mrwizard · 14th September 2010, 11:02 PM

Hello Sirek and David,
This is indeed a very good suggestion and i think it might be the correct one. At least it's much more probable than
my Sumba theory (this post is currently still under moderation so you didn't see it).

I had a closer look at some more of those sirih pestle hilt
and many of them have carvings similar to my hilt.
Most of them look very much like keris hilts and the pestles have probably a tang that is not much thicker than a keris pesi which makes them a suitable and
inexpensive replacement.

Best Regards,
Thilo

14th September 2010, 07:57 PM	#1
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 171	saw today in an auction a sirih hand crusher with a similar hilt, perhaps the hilt is from a sirih-crusher? Attached Images

14th September 2010, 10:10 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Like Sirek i am also wondering if this hilt was always intended to serve as a keris hilt. Here is a handle i bought a few years back that was listed as a keris hilt, though i was always pretty sure it was meant for some other implement such as a sirih crusher. Bought it anyway because it was only $5 bucks. Attached Images

15th September 2010, 04:48 PM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Ok, disregard the 'priest-like' comment.. the breasts looks more woman-like.. Looking in Bambang Harsrinuksmo's 'Ensiklopedi Keris', pg 500.. there are 2 examples of ancestor hilts from Nusa Tenggara Timur.. in a different pose, but worksmanship of similar type.. which indicate that besides Sumatra, these type of hilts, do exist elsewhere in the Indonesian Archipelago. Last edited by Alam Shah; 15th September 2010 at 05:57 PM.

14th September 2010, 10:59 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	That Singha in horn you have, David; I always figured that was a betel crusher handle .

14th September 2010, 11:27 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

15th September 2010, 03:12 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important. I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

15th September 2010, 04:37 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Actually Penangsang, "sadak" in Javanese is the betel leaf when it has been rolled into a point with lime in it, ready for chewing. When the bride meets the groom at wedding ceremony, they both throw a sadak onto the floor. These pestles pictured are for crushing lime and are called "pelecok", from the word "lecok" which becomes "nglecok" : to crush, "dilecok" : crushed. When you think about it, yes, of course a sadak can overcome invulnerability, because friendship overcomes invulnerability and a sadak can be offered in friendship. Words do not always mean what they might appear to mean. In Indonesian, which as we know has its origin in Malay as it is spoken in South Sumatra, "gobek" refers to the entire mortar + pestle that is used to crush a complete betel chew to make it easier to consume. I do not know what the pestle alone is called in Indonesian.

15th September 2010, 06:05 AM	#9
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Ah... yes, you are right Alan, I stand corrected... sadak is the rolled betel leave, and (was said) used by Jaka Tingkir to kill Dadung Awuk. And I also understand that words do not always mean what they might appear to mean, as the duel with Dadung Awok mentioned could just be a metaphor of what jaka Tingkir had done to warrant a punishment (stripped of his position and outcast). And you are also right about gobek back to the topic, IMPO, keris of pusoko standard among wong ndeso does not really care about aesthetic, compatibility blade to wrongko or ukiran. As Mrwizard pointed out earlier, the hilt struck very close resemblance to tau-tau statue of Toraja, i think the blade and hilt originated in Sulawesi. Though Toraja people are not keris bearers, some of their pusakas are actually keris, made in South Sulawesi (ref: Kris Disk by Karsten Sejr Jensen)

14th September 2010, 11:02 PM	#12
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello Sirek and David, This is indeed a very good suggestion and i think it might be the correct one. At least it's much more probable than my Sumba theory (this post is currently still under moderation so you didn't see it). I had a closer look at some more of those sirih pestle hilt and many of them have carvings similar to my hilt. Most of them look very much like keris hilts and the pestles have probably a tang that is not much thicker than a keris pesi which makes them a suitable and inexpensive replacement. Best Regards, Thilo