Ancestor hilt or tourist piece?

kai · 13th September 2010, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Of course it might be a composite keris from completely unrelated parts, but then what was the motivation of combining these items?

Mixing and matching parts of a keris apparently has a long tradition all over the archipelago. There are enough examples that appear to be genuine and possibly based on personal preferences.

However, wild composites from several areas and including parts of lower quality are often seen offered from Java/Madura. Genuine spare parts from other regions are apparently often not available cheap enough to warrant the investment. Local craftsmen also try to copy "foreign" hilt and scabbard styles but these tend to be easy to spot since usually the flow of lines is off.

Quote:

Maybe the ensemble was combined by a european collector from "spare parts".

Also a possibility - same approach to a similar situation...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th September 2010, 01:02 AM

Yes, I agree 100% with these remarks Kai.

The number of times I have seen mix & match keris goes beyond counting. All sorts of reasons can be identified for this, it can be a collector or dealer outside S.E.Asia, a collector or dealer within S.E.Asia, or somebody, somewhere in a keris bearing area of S.E.Asia who is outside of the direct influence of a particular keris style.

Even in Central Jawa, although we will see the classic Surakarta/Jogjakarta styles predominate in cities and towns, when you go into the villages you can find a lot of variation from the classic styles.

A couple of years ago I was shown a keris that had authentic old, provenance dating it to pre-WWII in coastal North Sumatra, and as a pusaka keris, that is, as a keris that had been identified as a family keris for an extended period of time. It was a complete hodge-podge of mostly very inferior parts, I forget the actual combination, but it was something like Bugis blade, home made wrongko with truncated Jawa pendok, rubbish Jawa mendak and some sort of poor quality ivory hilt, and it was quite small. If you saw it in a shop you'd write it off as junk, however, for the owner, in pre-WWII North Sumatra, who was a poor fisherman, it was the most important and valuable thing he owned.

Not all keris are wonderful works of art.

mrwizard · 14th September 2010, 06:36 PM

I see, thanks for the clarification Kai and Alan. I wrongly assumed that the different styles were used as symbols for cultural/geographical identity and mixing styles would just look plain wrong in the eyes of members of that culture. Somewhat like combining sneakers with a business suit or someone in italy wearing a scottish kilt.

AND, of course, this a very specialised forum where most people care about every detail of their keris and will therefore present mostly the well dressed pieces of their collection. For sure there will be many "village style" keris around that will never end up in the collection of a keris-enthusiats or presented in an internet forum.

In the meantime i did some further "research" regarding the heritage of my oddball hilt.
What i found was this kodi from sumba which looks somewhat similar in style:
http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/badik/kodi1a.gif

Further search about sumba revealed that the hair-knot is a common hair stlye of the women there and that there
is a also buginese minority. Didn't find any pictures of local keris, though. But as always i will propably stumble across one as soon as i stop looking ;-)

Best regards,
Thilo

sirek · 14th September 2010, 07:57 PM

saw today in an auction a sirih hand crusher with a similar hilt, perhaps
the hilt is from a sirih-crusher?

David · 14th September 2010, 10:10 PM

Like Sirek i am also wondering if this hilt was always intended to serve as a keris hilt. Here is a handle i bought a few years back that was listed as a keris hilt, though i was always pretty sure it was meant for some other implement such as a sirih crusher. Bought it anyway because it was only $5 bucks.

Rick · 14th September 2010, 10:59 PM

That Singha in horn you have, David; I always figured that was a betel crusher handle .

David · 14th September 2010, 11:27 PM

Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

PenangsangII · 15th September 2010, 03:12 AM

It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important.

I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

Alam Shah · 15th September 2010, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

Hmmm.. I thought it looks a little like Sumatran Batak.. but maybe not..

mrwizard · 14th September 2010, 11:02 PM

Hello Sirek and David,
This is indeed a very good suggestion and i think it might be the correct one. At least it's much more probable than
my Sumba theory (this post is currently still under moderation so you didn't see it).

I had a closer look at some more of those sirih pestle hilt
and many of them have carvings similar to my hilt.
Most of them look very much like keris hilts and the pestles have probably a tang that is not much thicker than a keris pesi which makes them a suitable and
inexpensive replacement.

Best Regards,
Thilo

14th September 2010, 07:57 PM	#4
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 170	saw today in an auction a sirih hand crusher with a similar hilt, perhaps the hilt is from a sirih-crusher? Attached Images

14th September 2010, 10:10 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Like Sirek i am also wondering if this hilt was always intended to serve as a keris hilt. Here is a handle i bought a few years back that was listed as a keris hilt, though i was always pretty sure it was meant for some other implement such as a sirih crusher. Bought it anyway because it was only $5 bucks. Attached Images

14th September 2010, 01:02 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, I agree 100% with these remarks Kai. The number of times I have seen mix & match keris goes beyond counting. All sorts of reasons can be identified for this, it can be a collector or dealer outside S.E.Asia, a collector or dealer within S.E.Asia, or somebody, somewhere in a keris bearing area of S.E.Asia who is outside of the direct influence of a particular keris style. Even in Central Jawa, although we will see the classic Surakarta/Jogjakarta styles predominate in cities and towns, when you go into the villages you can find a lot of variation from the classic styles. A couple of years ago I was shown a keris that had authentic old, provenance dating it to pre-WWII in coastal North Sumatra, and as a pusaka keris, that is, as a keris that had been identified as a family keris for an extended period of time. It was a complete hodge-podge of mostly very inferior parts, I forget the actual combination, but it was something like Bugis blade, home made wrongko with truncated Jawa pendok, rubbish Jawa mendak and some sort of poor quality ivory hilt, and it was quite small. If you saw it in a shop you'd write it off as junk, however, for the owner, in pre-WWII North Sumatra, who was a poor fisherman, it was the most important and valuable thing he owned. Not all keris are wonderful works of art.

14th September 2010, 06:36 PM	#3
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	I see, thanks for the clarification Kai and Alan. I wrongly assumed that the different styles were used as symbols for cultural/geographical identity and mixing styles would just look plain wrong in the eyes of members of that culture. Somewhat like combining sneakers with a business suit or someone in italy wearing a scottish kilt. AND, of course, this a very specialised forum where most people care about every detail of their keris and will therefore present mostly the well dressed pieces of their collection. For sure there will be many "village style" keris around that will never end up in the collection of a keris-enthusiats or presented in an internet forum. In the meantime i did some further "research" regarding the heritage of my oddball hilt. What i found was this kodi from sumba which looks somewhat similar in style: http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/badik/kodi1a.gif Further search about sumba revealed that the hair-knot is a common hair stlye of the women there and that there is a also buginese minority. Didn't find any pictures of local keris, though. But as always i will propably stumble across one as soon as i stop looking ;-) Best regards, Thilo

14th September 2010, 10:59 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	That Singha in horn you have, David; I always figured that was a betel crusher handle .

14th September 2010, 11:27 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

15th September 2010, 03:12 AM	#8
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important. I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

14th September 2010, 11:02 PM	#10
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello Sirek and David, This is indeed a very good suggestion and i think it might be the correct one. At least it's much more probable than my Sumba theory (this post is currently still under moderation so you didn't see it). I had a closer look at some more of those sirih pestle hilt and many of them have carvings similar to my hilt. Most of them look very much like keris hilts and the pestles have probably a tang that is not much thicker than a keris pesi which makes them a suitable and inexpensive replacement. Best Regards, Thilo