Help with Identification please

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Dear All,

i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts.

Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method.

I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here.

its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris....

Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference.

Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things....

If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

Rick · 6th September 2010, 03:43 AM

Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes .

Yes ?

There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ?

We'll move on now ....

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 04:21 AM

I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang.

I have learnt much from that which you have written.

I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

David · 6th September 2010, 06:09 AM

As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed.
It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either.
Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 07:37 AM

Thanks David for your further comments....

The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing.

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore)

In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

Jussi M. · 6th September 2010, 10:20 AM

Popcorn, anyone?

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 03:02 PM

Thank you again Penangsang for providing such a wonderful post for us.

I had determined that I was not going to involve myself any further in these exchanges, principally because of what I consider to be an insensitive approach to matters that really have no place in a public online Forum.However, I feel that Penangsang's most recent post does need to be addressed in order to clarify several matters for those amongst us who may not be quite so advanced in the spiritual aspects of the keris as Penangsang apparently considers himself to be.

For those of you who may be silently recoiling from the possibility that I intend to discuss the concept of yoni openly, please relax. I do not intend to open this matter to discussion, but merely to provide an understanding of the area into which we have ventured.

Penangsang has used two words that we usually only hear in a face to face situation where discussion is between close friends:- yoni, and digdaya.

Both of these words are Javanese. In this context the meaning of yoni refers to something having a magical power. The meaning of digdaya is for something to be invulnerable because of magical or supernatural power.

These words do not have the same meaning. In fact, they do not even have a similar meaning.

The power of yoni is transferable when the keris is correctly matched to its custodian, however digdaya is invulnerability that is possessed by virtue of magical or supernatural power. It may be that the tuah that has been generated by the yoni is a tuah that is capable of providing invulnerability, but very often the tuah of a keris has absolutely nothing at all to do with invulnerability, it could be concerned with profit in business, or ease of social relationships, or facility in attracting women, or any one of many other fortuitous powers.

The concept of yoni refers to an element, or factor that is the essence linking the maker of a keris with the tuah of a keris.Yoni is not a spirit nor a djin nor an identifiable thing, it is a power, or a mysterious force that fixes the tuah.

The tuah is essentially a talismanic power, and it cannot exist unless the custodian of the keris has belief that it does exist.Tuah is always a good and a positive force, but it can only exist where the keris is correctly matched to the custodian.

The strength of the yoni is linked in turn to the devoutness and the mystical knowledge of maker of the keris. Since such knowledge can only be possessed by an Mpu, this dictates that any keris which may be considered to possess yoni must be the product of an Mpu.

This theory, or hypothesis is a relatively recent one that has been popularised by an ahli keris from Solo, B.P.H. Sumodiningrat, a noble from the Karaton Surakarta.

Inherrent in this theory there is no suggestion that the tuah of a keris is directly linked to God, however there is the belief that by virtue of his devoutness and his fasting and meditation, the Mpu draws close to God.

The belief in the yoni of a keris is an element of the Javanese belief system that surrounds the keris and has its roots in Kejawen and the revival of Javanese culture which took place during the Kartosuro period. It is an attractive theory to those who are followers of Sufic mysticism, and by virtue of this the belief in the yoni theory has spread widely throughout keris bearing cultures in a very short period of time.

When we consider whether or not a keris may possess yoni there is one over-riding requirement that must be fulfilled before all others:- the keris must be the product of an Mpu. In other words the physical quality of the keris must be consistent with the product of an Mpu.

This is probably about as far as I am prepared to go in this matter.

As I have already commented, discussion of yoni is a very sensitive subject that should only be carried out in private in a face to face situation, and between trusted friends with similar levels of knowledge. It is not a subject for open or public discussion and must not be openly discussed with those who are not yet sufficiently mature to understand the implications.

What I have written above is what I have been taught. It may vary from the beliefs held by others, however, my teachers were located in Solo, and were of the same social group as the man who caused the concept of yoni to become popular.

David · 6th September 2010, 05:20 PM

Thank you Penang for bringing the subject of yoni to the forefront, even though i do fully understand and agree with Mr. Maisey that such discussions can only go so far in an open forum such as this. I have no concerns about the general discussion of spiritual matters in regards to keris however, even if some of our membership may not believe in these aspects, since it is in my mind intrinsic to the subject of the keris itself. I would also like to thank Mr. Maisey for his detailed, yet restained, paragraphs on the subject of yoni and digdaya. Very informative without going "too far" i think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous.

Now, in regards to what you have written above, the obvious answer is because even after a second reading (i can only assume that you read Shahrial's remarks again when i pointed you to them) you still don't seem to have fully understood them. Please read them one more time since he did NOT claim that he didn't know anybody who uses the boiling method. What he DID write was that MOST of his fellow collectors do not use this method. This very clearly implies that SOME of them, how ever few, indeed DO use that method. I am making a special point of this only because i believe it is absolutely imperative that we ALL carefully read the comments of our fellow members before we respond to them, especially if we are to call those comments "preposterous". That is just common respect.

Henk · 6th September 2010, 08:30 PM

Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris.

Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated,
imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner.
Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either.

And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt.
I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water.
The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

6th September 2010, 10:20 AM	#6
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Popcorn, anyone? Last edited by David; 6th September 2010 at 05:21 PM.

6th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear All, i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts. Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method. I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here. its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris.... Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference. Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things.... If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

6th September 2010, 03:43 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes . Yes ? There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ? We'll move on now ....

6th September 2010, 04:21 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang. I have learnt much from that which you have written. I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

6th September 2010, 06:09 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed. It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either. Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

6th September 2010, 07:37 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thanks David for your further comments.... The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing. And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore) In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

6th September 2010, 03:02 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Thank you again Penangsang for providing such a wonderful post for us. I had determined that I was not going to involve myself any further in these exchanges, principally because of what I consider to be an insensitive approach to matters that really have no place in a public online Forum.However, I feel that Penangsang's most recent post does need to be addressed in order to clarify several matters for those amongst us who may not be quite so advanced in the spiritual aspects of the keris as Penangsang apparently considers himself to be. For those of you who may be silently recoiling from the possibility that I intend to discuss the concept of yoni openly, please relax. I do not intend to open this matter to discussion, but merely to provide an understanding of the area into which we have ventured. Penangsang has used two words that we usually only hear in a face to face situation where discussion is between close friends:- yoni, and digdaya. Both of these words are Javanese. In this context the meaning of yoni refers to something having a magical power. The meaning of digdaya is for something to be invulnerable because of magical or supernatural power. These words do not have the same meaning. In fact, they do not even have a similar meaning. The power of yoni is transferable when the keris is correctly matched to its custodian, however digdaya is invulnerability that is possessed by virtue of magical or supernatural power. It may be that the tuah that has been generated by the yoni is a tuah that is capable of providing invulnerability, but very often the tuah of a keris has absolutely nothing at all to do with invulnerability, it could be concerned with profit in business, or ease of social relationships, or facility in attracting women, or any one of many other fortuitous powers. The concept of yoni refers to an element, or factor that is the essence linking the maker of a keris with the tuah of a keris.Yoni is not a spirit nor a djin nor an identifiable thing, it is a power, or a mysterious force that fixes the tuah. The tuah is essentially a talismanic power, and it cannot exist unless the custodian of the keris has belief that it does exist.Tuah is always a good and a positive force, but it can only exist where the keris is correctly matched to the custodian. The strength of the yoni is linked in turn to the devoutness and the mystical knowledge of maker of the keris. Since such knowledge can only be possessed by an Mpu, this dictates that any keris which may be considered to possess yoni must be the product of an Mpu. This theory, or hypothesis is a relatively recent one that has been popularised by an ahli keris from Solo, B.P.H. Sumodiningrat, a noble from the Karaton Surakarta. Inherrent in this theory there is no suggestion that the tuah of a keris is directly linked to God, however there is the belief that by virtue of his devoutness and his fasting and meditation, the Mpu draws close to God. The belief in the yoni of a keris is an element of the Javanese belief system that surrounds the keris and has its roots in Kejawen and the revival of Javanese culture which took place during the Kartosuro period. It is an attractive theory to those who are followers of Sufic mysticism, and by virtue of this the belief in the yoni theory has spread widely throughout keris bearing cultures in a very short period of time. When we consider whether or not a keris may possess yoni there is one over-riding requirement that must be fulfilled before all others:- the keris must be the product of an Mpu. In other words the physical quality of the keris must be consistent with the product of an Mpu. This is probably about as far as I am prepared to go in this matter. As I have already commented, discussion of yoni is a very sensitive subject that should only be carried out in private in a face to face situation, and between trusted friends with similar levels of knowledge. It is not a subject for open or public discussion and must not be openly discussed with those who are not yet sufficiently mature to understand the implications. What I have written above is what I have been taught. It may vary from the beliefs held by others, however, my teachers were located in Solo, and were of the same social group as the man who caused the concept of yoni to become popular.

6th September 2010, 08:30 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris. Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated, imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either. And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt. I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water. The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.