Help with Identification please

David · 3rd September 2010, 07:42 PM

Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community.
I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade.

I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

Rick · 3rd September 2010, 08:18 PM

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance .

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 01:00 AM

Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be.

This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris.

In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust.

I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

kai · 4th September 2010, 01:27 AM

Alan beat me to it. The blade looks very healthy and I do hope that the pesi is in a good condition but playing it safe it certainly the way to go.

Quote:

When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

Just to emphasize: Utilizing the thumbs gives much better control than pulling with the arms.

Quote:

If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

I'd also prefer to shield the hulu from radiating heat by holding it with a padded glove (kitchen ware).

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 01:41 AM

Kai, I usually hold the hilt in my hand, this way you can feel how hot its getting. If you use a candle or a small kerosene lamp there is in fact very little radiated heat. I'm not as cautious as I advise others to be, I use a propane torch held in a vice, and pass the blade through the flame, even doing it this way and holding the hilt in my bare hand, there is very little radiated heat. I don't like to isolate myself from the hilt and the blade by using gloves, if you can feel them you know exactly how much heat is going into the keris, and where it is going.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

.. I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

Hi Alan,
Thank you for the detailed advice.. I'll proceed as suggested..

Sometimes, half the fun is trying to do thing ourselves. I've a friend whom while trying to remove an old bugis hilt, broke the pesi into 3 parts.. with only half an inch left. Although it can get fixed.. the damage is done.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance .

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced..

kai · 5th September 2010, 03:04 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Quote:

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced..

I'm certainly with you. Actually your pics are among the most convincing I have seen so far for SEA hilts claimed to be rhino horn - the diagnostic structure can well be seen at the "head/face" (next time turn the hilt or the digicam to avoid reflections of the flash at the pertinent area). Needless to say, most "suspect" hilts prove to be (often albino) water buffalo horn upon microscopic examination...

Regards,
Kai

imas560 · 5th September 2010, 07:08 AM

Hello all,
Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg
The hilt is on very tight (no movement).
I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time.

I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area.

I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly.

I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt.
Two attempts was enough for today.
The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

Alam Shah · 5th September 2010, 12:54 PM

Good effort imas560..

sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

A. G. Maisey · 5th September 2010, 02:17 PM

I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length.

I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk.

Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you?

Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat.

You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it.

The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi.

Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force.

It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times.

If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do.

This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

Believe me, I've tried.. I usually use the candle technique, safest method yet.. then I'll put it in between a phone book, and gently try to twist the hilt.. This is my hardest hilt yet..

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 12:40 PM

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.

I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered.

It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled.

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience.

I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.
..

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience...

So, I reckon it's normal then. Since I'm the current custodian, I'll normally take my time working on it.. Sometimes giving it some thought, to conserve or restore..

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 09:09 PM

That can often be the question, Alam Shah:- conserve or restore?

Sometimes it may be more wise to leave the problem for somebody else to fix in another 50 years or so.

Regarding your friend's pesi that broke. It is entirely possible that it had rusted through in any case. If you could see the white of un-rusted steel in the separation, OK, it broke. But if you could not, it was possibly rusted through.

As long as there is some part of the pesi left it is easy to repair, and the shortened or more slender pesi is only evidence of age.This is a standard, expected part of maintenance in Jawa.

Even when the pesi is completely broken off and no part of it is left, it can be repaired, although at that point the blade has lost its integrity.

5th September 2010, 07:08 AM	#9
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Step 1: Hilt Removal Hello all, Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page. http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg The hilt is on very tight (no movement). I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time. I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area. I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly. I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt. Two attempts was enough for today. The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

3rd September 2010, 07:42 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community. I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade. I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

3rd September 2010, 08:18 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance . Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

4th September 2010, 01:00 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be. This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris. In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another. In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust. I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day. The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

4th September 2010, 01:41 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Kai, I usually hold the hilt in my hand, this way you can feel how hot its getting. If you use a candle or a small kerosene lamp there is in fact very little radiated heat. I'm not as cautious as I advise others to be, I use a propane torch held in a vice, and pass the blade through the flame, even doing it this way and holding the hilt in my bare hand, there is very little radiated heat. I don't like to isolate myself from the hilt and the blade by using gloves, if you can feel them you know exactly how much heat is going into the keris, and where it is going.

5th September 2010, 12:54 PM	#10
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Good effort imas560.. sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

5th September 2010, 02:17 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length. I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk. Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you? Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat. You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it. The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi. Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force. It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times. If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do. This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

4th September 2010, 12:40 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off. I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered. It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled. It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust. In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience. I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.

4th September 2010, 09:09 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	That can often be the question, Alam Shah:- conserve or restore? Sometimes it may be more wise to leave the problem for somebody else to fix in another 50 years or so. Regarding your friend's pesi that broke. It is entirely possible that it had rusted through in any case. If you could see the white of un-rusted steel in the separation, OK, it broke. But if you could not, it was possibly rusted through. As long as there is some part of the pesi left it is easy to repair, and the shortened or more slender pesi is only evidence of age.This is a standard, expected part of maintenance in Jawa. Even when the pesi is completely broken off and no part of it is left, it can be repaired, although at that point the blade has lost its integrity.