Origin of the term Eisenhauer

Dmitry · 2nd September 2010, 07:39 PM

I've asked some German collectors on the origins of 'Eisenhauer', so far no-one could give a definite answer, but the general agreement for the appearance of the term is still the mid-1800s, which [again] leads me do believe that it was a marketing logo. I'll keep looking. I am sure the answer is out there, but unfortunately I don't speak or understand a word of German.
I've also ordered "The Arms and Armour of Arabia". Thanks for the tip, Jim!

Jim McDougall · 4th September 2010, 03:48 AM

I dont think there is any doubt that the use of the term was a marketing gimmick in the mid 19th century, I've seen the term emblazoned on a banner type marking on blades before and of that period. What I'd like to discover is the source and vintage of this term/concept.
In England Samuel Harvey used the venerable old 'running fox' in the mid 18th century, when its use by German makers had ceased in the previous century.

Im glad you ordered "Arms and Armour of Arabia", its a fantastic reference and though the title seems restricted, Elgood's books never are. The footnotes carry important references and clues that seem to apply in an incredibly wide scope of topics.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 19th September 2010, 10:58 PM

Hi Dmitry and Jim,

Being a German native speaker, I have tried my best to do research on the term Eisenhauer because it doubtlessly is German.

After leafing thru some 15th and 16th century sources it first seemed to go back to the diggers in the iron mines who dug the iron strands out of the rock. From the 16th century onwards, though, it seems to have been used not only for blade smiths but synonymous of nearly all weapon smiths. By that time, too, it had developed into a common familly name many of which stem from the kind of the former craft of the guy given. Another simlilar name is Eisenmenger (iron mingler), which seems to refer more strictly to the smiths who mixed various sorts of iron in order to get optimum quality steel.

Of course, President Dwight D. Eisenhower had, among others, German ancestors.
I have not been able to trace back the family name Eisenhauer to a manufacturer of blades but in all probability there must have been somebody with that name the quality of whose blades became synonymous of good blades in general and, in consequence, was often copied by other bladesmiths - just like the Passau or Solingen wolf marks.

Hoping to have been helpful,
best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Dmitry and Jim,

Being a German native speaker, I have tried my best to do research on the term Eisenhauer because it doubtlessly is German.

After leafing thru some 15th and 16th century sources it first seemed to go back to the diggers in the iron mines who dug the iron strands out of the rock. From the 16th century onwards, though, it seems to have been used not only for blade smiths but synonymous of nearly all weapon smiths. By that time, too, it had developed into a common familly name many of which stem from the kind of the former craft of the guy given. Another simlilar name is Eisenmenger (iron mingler), which seems to refer more strictly to the smiths who mixed various sorts of iron in order to get optimum quality steel.

Of course, President Dwight D. Eisenhower had, among others, German ancestors.
I have not been able to trace back the family name Eisenhauer to a manufacturer of blades but in all probability there must have been somebody with that name the quality of whose blades became synonymous of good blades in general and, in consequence, was often copied by other bladesmiths - just like the Passau or Solingen wolf marks.

Hoping to have been helpful,
best,
Michael

Hi Michael,
Thank you so much for this information, and its really helpful to have inside information from these early German sources, which I know you know so thoroughly with the amazing research you always present here. It does indeed seem that so many family names evolved from trade characteristics as one of the many roots . I had not thought of the 'mingling' of iron, as we know the manner for forging pattern welded blades.

Interesting note on our former president Dwight D. Eisenhower also!

Outstanding information Michael, much appreciated,
All the best,
Jim

katana · 25th September 2010, 05:46 PM

Checking 'Babelfish' I have found that 'Eisenhauer' does not directly translate. Checking 'eisen' and 'hauer', as seperate words gives iron and hauer (ie no translated word)

However, eisen and haue ( I removed the 'r') is iron strike, this ties in neatly with Michael's post......afterall couldn't a blade/blacksmith be discribed as an 'iron striker'. Perhaps the term is not to do with the quality of the steel...but the quality of the blades's manufacture ??

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Checking 'Babelfish' I have found that 'Eisenhauer' does not directly translate. Checking 'eisen' and 'hauer', as seperate words gives iron and hauer (ie no translated word)

However, eisen and haue ( I removed the 'r') is iron strike, this ties in neatly with Michael's post......afterall couldn't a blade/blacksmith be discribed as an 'iron striker'. Perhaps the term is not to do with the quality of the steel...but the quality of the blades's manufacture ??

Regards David

Very well noted David! From my slowly growing understanding of metallurgy, it is the technique and processes of the forger which accomplishes the quality of the steel. In the discussion on wootz on a concurrent thread, one of the reasons that the secrets of wootz were essentially 'lost' was that ore supplies which inadvertantly carried trace elements became exhausted as well as British orders to cease production in those regions ended the source.
Since the ore supply was no longer available, and smiths were unaware that these minerals were key to the process, they could not properly reaccomplish the same grade of wootz steel.
The quality of Solingen steel is not only in the ore, but the forging process.

All best regards,
Jim

mrwizard · 25th September 2010, 10:55 PM

just a small remark from my side to stating the obvious:
'babelfish' is hardly a reference for the german language of the 19th century.

Luckily, two brothers that are more famous for their collection of folk-tales, compiled a dictionary exactly at that time.
There is no "Eisenhauer" in the dictionary but the meaning of the word "Hauer" is explained in detail:
http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/wbgui_py?lemma=hauer

There "Hauer" is directly connected with
- miners
- woodcutters
- several tools where just "hammer" would not be appropiate
- any slashing weapon
- the male wild boar
- the fangs of a male wild boar
- someone who strikes
- the act of striking itself

And in combination with a list of prefix words for several other trades (eg. Steinhauer for stone mason)
Strangely there is no mention of smithing there.

Does all this help us in explaining why there is the word "Eisenhauer" on some of the blades? No, it doesn't!

I don't think that there is a linguistic answer to that question. IMHO as long as we don't discover any
contempory text explaining the reason behind putting "Eisenhauer" on the blades we may as well
continue discussing the incription of "+VLFBERH+T" on some 9th century blades...

Best Regards,
Thilo

2nd September 2010, 07:39 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I've asked some German collectors on the origins of 'Eisenhauer', so far no-one could give a definite answer, but the general agreement for the appearance of the term is still the mid-1800s, which [again] leads me do believe that it was a marketing logo. I'll keep looking. I am sure the answer is out there, but unfortunately I don't speak or understand a word of German. I've also ordered "The Arms and Armour of Arabia". Thanks for the tip, Jim!

4th September 2010, 03:48 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	I dont think there is any doubt that the use of the term was a marketing gimmick in the mid 19th century, I've seen the term emblazoned on a banner type marking on blades before and of that period. What I'd like to discover is the source and vintage of this term/concept. In England Samuel Harvey used the venerable old 'running fox' in the mid 18th century, when its use by German makers had ceased in the previous century. Im glad you ordered "Arms and Armour of Arabia", its a fantastic reference and though the title seems restricted, Elgood's books never are. The footnotes carry important references and clues that seem to apply in an incredibly wide scope of topics. All the best, Jim

19th September 2010, 10:58 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Dmitry and Jim, Being a German native speaker, I have tried my best to do research on the term Eisenhauer because it doubtlessly is German. After leafing thru some 15th and 16th century sources it first seemed to go back to the diggers in the iron mines who dug the iron strands out of the rock. From the 16th century onwards, though, it seems to have been used not only for blade smiths but synonymous of nearly all weapon smiths. By that time, too, it had developed into a common familly name many of which stem from the kind of the former craft of the guy given. Another simlilar name is Eisenmenger (iron mingler), which seems to refer more strictly to the smiths who mixed various sorts of iron in order to get optimum quality steel. Of course, President Dwight D. Eisenhower had, among others, German ancestors. I have not been able to trace back the family name Eisenhauer to a manufacturer of blades but in all probability there must have been somebody with that name the quality of whose blades became synonymous of good blades in general and, in consequence, was often copied by other bladesmiths - just like the Passau or Solingen wolf marks. Hoping to have been helpful, best, Michael

25th September 2010, 05:46 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Checking 'Babelfish' I have found that 'Eisenhauer' does not directly translate. Checking 'eisen' and 'hauer', as seperate words gives iron and hauer (ie no translated word) However, eisen and haue ( I removed the 'r') is iron strike, this ties in neatly with Michael's post......afterall couldn't a blade/blacksmith be discribed as an 'iron striker'. Perhaps the term is not to do with the quality of the steel...but the quality of the blades's manufacture ?? Regards David

25th September 2010, 10:55 PM	#7
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	just a small remark from my side to stating the obvious: 'babelfish' is hardly a reference for the german language of the 19th century. Luckily, two brothers that are more famous for their collection of folk-tales, compiled a dictionary exactly at that time. There is no "Eisenhauer" in the dictionary but the meaning of the word "Hauer" is explained in detail: http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/wbgui_py?lemma=hauer There "Hauer" is directly connected with - miners - woodcutters - several tools where just "hammer" would not be appropiate - any slashing weapon - the male wild boar - the fangs of a male wild boar - someone who strikes - the act of striking itself And in combination with a list of prefix words for several other trades (eg. Steinhauer for stone mason) Strangely there is no mention of smithing there. Does all this help us in explaining why there is the word "Eisenhauer" on some of the blades? No, it doesn't! I don't think that there is a linguistic answer to that question. IMHO as long as we don't discover any contempory text explaining the reason behind putting "Eisenhauer" on the blades we may as well continue discussing the incription of "+VLFBERH+T" on some 9th century blades... Best Regards, Thilo