19th century gothic dagger?

Dom · 29th August 2010, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yeah European alright. Yes possibly French.

good shoot

might be a track ...

see under the label; "Dague romantique Viollet le Duc"

à +

Dom

M ELEY · 29th August 2010, 09:03 AM

Hmmm...well, I wouldn't say fantasy knife, but perhaps something more utilitarian, like a letter opener? I don't mean this insultingly, as there are collectors of such. The figure could be a griffon, but with that face, I was thinking 'gargoyle', which is also a popular French decoration. I wouldn't think it was too old,perhaps early 20th?? A well-decorated piece. My two cents...

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 12:58 PM

Hi Mark

You could be right.

I've seen other figural daggers recently that are rather like letter openers, so I do know where you're coming from. Certainly, this would serve that purpose. But this is a proper dagger with a very nice blade. The knives I've seen which were like letter openers were smaller.

This is a full sized piece. It's 26cm long, with a blade of about 15.5cm.

Seems a bit excessive for a letter opener. However, I know some people who opener their champagne bottles with Scottish broadswords!

The custom knife maker I bought it from was pretty impressed with its manufacture as a knife. And I have to say, I do agree. It's a well made knife.

You may be right. It could be early 20th century. Hard to say. Later 19th century is also a possibility.

I don't think it's much later than that.

Thanks for your comments.

Atlantia · 29th August 2010, 01:08 PM

Hi Ron.

I have to say that my first thoughts are that it is very pretty, but last 40 years.
However, first impressions can indeed be way off the mark, and as you say, sometiimes it is the items dismissed by the 'experts' that turn out to be the 'sleeper' gems.
I have a couple of questions that may help discern origins a bit more.
How is the handle attached to the blade?
Is the blade stainless steel, I can't see any marks on it from oxidisation?
Is there any liner in the scabbard?

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 01:28 PM

Hi

I don't think it's stainless steel. There is some light oxidation on the blade, some fluffy black stuff that hasn't shown up in the photo. I believe the scabbard has a wood lining, but can't really tell. However, I do know the other example I spoke about had a wood lining. I believe the copper is wrapped around this wood lining.

I think the handle is attached the same ways most old blades are attached. The tang goes right through the hilt. There seems to be a mark visible at the top of the knife - you can see the mark where the tang comes through on the gargoyle's head. This is the same sort of mark you'd see in a sword dating from the 19th century – for instance, the same sort of mark you'd see on a 19th British naval officer's sword (the lion head). However, it is subtle and hard to detect, but it's definitely there.

The handle appears to haven been cast in 2 pieces – a line runs through the profile of the hilt. However, is is not quite in the centre.

Regards
Ron

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 02:04 PM

I can confirm there is a liner in the scabbard but it's not visible from the outside. There are two bits of wood - one on the front plate and one of the back, that help keep the blade snug when in the scabbard.

The scabbard itself is also copper and cast in two identical pieces - the back and front are the same, with the same design etc.

The seam on the scabbard is not all that strong. It would be easy to tear it apart, but then of course it is only copper.

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 03:58 PM

It seems the mystery has been solved. It is a Dague Romantique. Thank you Dom.

It is a type of 19th century knife, very stylised, and often by prostitutes. A kind of prostitute knife with a fantasy twist.

Here's another one

http://www.clic-nature.fr/forum/topic2907.html

29th August 2010, 09:03 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hmmm...well, I wouldn't say fantasy knife, but perhaps something more utilitarian, like a letter opener? I don't mean this insultingly, as there are collectors of such. The figure could be a griffon, but with that face, I was thinking 'gargoyle', which is also a popular French decoration. I wouldn't think it was too old,perhaps early 20th?? A well-decorated piece. My two cents...

29th August 2010, 12:58 PM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Mark You could be right. I've seen other figural daggers recently that are rather like letter openers, so I do know where you're coming from. Certainly, this would serve that purpose. But this is a proper dagger with a very nice blade. The knives I've seen which were like letter openers were smaller. This is a full sized piece. It's 26cm long, with a blade of about 15.5cm. Seems a bit excessive for a letter opener. However, I know some people who opener their champagne bottles with Scottish broadswords! The custom knife maker I bought it from was pretty impressed with its manufacture as a knife. And I have to say, I do agree. It's a well made knife. You may be right. It could be early 20th century. Hard to say. Later 19th century is also a possibility. I don't think it's much later than that. Thanks for your comments.

29th August 2010, 01:08 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Ron. I have to say that my first thoughts are that it is very pretty, but last 40 years. However, first impressions can indeed be way off the mark, and as you say, sometiimes it is the items dismissed by the 'experts' that turn out to be the 'sleeper' gems. I have a couple of questions that may help discern origins a bit more. How is the handle attached to the blade? Is the blade stainless steel, I can't see any marks on it from oxidisation? Is there any liner in the scabbard?

29th August 2010, 01:28 PM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi I don't think it's stainless steel. There is some light oxidation on the blade, some fluffy black stuff that hasn't shown up in the photo. I believe the scabbard has a wood lining, but can't really tell. However, I do know the other example I spoke about had a wood lining. I believe the copper is wrapped around this wood lining. I think the handle is attached the same ways most old blades are attached. The tang goes right through the hilt. There seems to be a mark visible at the top of the knife - you can see the mark where the tang comes through on the gargoyle's head. This is the same sort of mark you'd see in a sword dating from the 19th century – for instance, the same sort of mark you'd see on a 19th British naval officer's sword (the lion head). However, it is subtle and hard to detect, but it's definitely there. The handle appears to haven been cast in 2 pieces – a line runs through the profile of the hilt. However, is is not quite in the centre. Regards Ron

29th August 2010, 02:04 PM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I can confirm there is a liner in the scabbard but it's not visible from the outside. There are two bits of wood - one on the front plate and one of the back, that help keep the blade snug when in the scabbard. The scabbard itself is also copper and cast in two identical pieces - the back and front are the same, with the same design etc. The seam on the scabbard is not all that strong. It would be easy to tear it apart, but then of course it is only copper.

29th August 2010, 03:58 PM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	It seems the mystery has been solved. It is a Dague Romantique. Thank you Dom. It is a type of 19th century knife, very stylised, and often by prostitutes. A kind of prostitute knife with a fantasy twist. Here's another one http://www.clic-nature.fr/forum/topic2907.html