Lance head ?? Indo Persian? Seller stated African

katana · 28th August 2010, 12:08 AM

Thank you Gentlemen for your replies

,

So generally agreed possibly Indian. Rick your suggestion of a SEA is interesting....for some reason I wondered if this was from Southern India which have weapon features that have influenced / have been influenced by SEA.

Hi Battara,
although the pictures give the impression that the head is 3 sided, it is in fact 4 sided, a diamond shaped cross section. Max width viewed from above is 30mm (1 1/4") ....viewed from side max width is 16mm ( 5/8" )

The red 'band' on the socket is only just noticeable in certain lighting conditions. It seems to 'bleed through' the very dark stablised patina. Not obvious is the very tip is slightly bent and blunted. I do not believe this was 'abuse', but combat damage the overall patina is the same as with the rest of the head and socket.
This damage is consistant with great impact force....perhaps again suggesting a cavalry lance.

One of the 'fullers' out of the 4 is slightly longer. It seems that it has a impressed stamp, which is too worn / corroded to see but, the outline of its 'border' seems almost rectangular 4mm x3mm slightly above that (and centrally) there is a small faded 'something'....under magnification these two combined almost appear to be a crown but like looking at clouds and making out shapes, the more you try to 'see' ....the more the mind 'creates'.

Any ideas as to the red 'band'

thank you

Kind Regards David

.

Rick · 28th August 2010, 12:37 AM

There is a red painted band just above the ferrule of my Parang Nabur/Barbary Pirate sword .
Just information to throw in there .

Are you sure this is hand forged ?

It almost looks cast from what I can see .

Tim Simmons · 28th August 2010, 11:40 AM

The other end of a spear????

katana · 28th August 2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

It almost looks cast from what I can see .

Hi Rick

,
could you please explain what you mean by 'cast' .....and why you think this item is made from it, thanks.

David

Rick · 28th August 2010, 11:55 PM

Let's see some more detailed pictures of the faceted socket please .

It looks so uniform from your pix .

No waves in the surface; thick ...

katana · 29th August 2010, 12:16 AM

Hi Rick

,
I will try and get clearer close-ups and post them.

Using a loupe I have been checking the surface to clues for the type of construction ....and discovered, what I think, is small amounts of silver koftgari designs. Near impossible to photograph clearly but evidence of stripes, a chevron and circles with small rays (sun ?).

Now I have a problem, take the risk of removing the very old patina to reveal the remaining koftgari (good idea if a lot of it remains)....or leave as is ???

Regards David

Rick · 29th August 2010, 12:36 AM

By all means ....

Leave as is !

From your pictures it just looks so uniform; no waves, lumps etc.

katana · 29th August 2010, 02:07 PM

Hi Rick,
when you mentioned 'cast' ....I originally assumed you meant 'crucible steel. Weapons and tools were made from cast and were often marked 'warranted cast steel' as a sign of the quality of metal.

Now, I understand ...what you meant by cast was mould (mold

) 'formed' .

All I can say is the surface is covered in 'micro pitting' caused by corrosion and not bubbles form during casting. The 'fullering' seems forged although under high magnification I can see some fine scratches, in line with the fullers...possibly grinding/file marks to 'tidy them up'.

The socket is only hollow for 2/3 of its length the remaining third nearest the head is solid. Which again suggests to me that this design is to sustain 'hard impact'. ie the shaft end fitted into the socket would be flat (spreading the impact force) usually it would be pointed. The best analogy would be stiletto heels on a wooden floor compared to 'flat' shoes.....not that I've worn 'stiletto's recently

The koftgari also strongly suggests that this was not a 'throw away' item, so throwing spear is very unlikely......surely it has to be a lance head ???

I must admit I am 'itching' to find out what is hidden below the black stabilised rust layer (is there a name for this

) but do not want to remove 'the age' from the piece. What if I carefully clean one of the facets of the blade ??? leaving the other 3 'natural' . If there is a lot of the koftgari surviving below this layer, it would give more information ....but would it de-value the piece ???

All opinions gratefully received

Regards David

28th August 2010, 12:08 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Gentlemen for your replies , So generally agreed possibly Indian. Rick your suggestion of a SEA is interesting....for some reason I wondered if this was from Southern India which have weapon features that have influenced / have been influenced by SEA. Hi Battara, although the pictures give the impression that the head is 3 sided, it is in fact 4 sided, a diamond shaped cross section. Max width viewed from above is 30mm (1 1/4") ....viewed from side max width is 16mm ( 5/8" ) The red 'band' on the socket is only just noticeable in certain lighting conditions. It seems to 'bleed through' the very dark stablised patina. Not obvious is the very tip is slightly bent and blunted. I do not believe this was 'abuse', but combat damage the overall patina is the same as with the rest of the head and socket. This damage is consistant with great impact force....perhaps again suggesting a cavalry lance. One of the 'fullers' out of the 4 is slightly longer. It seems that it has a impressed stamp, which is too worn / corroded to see but, the outline of its 'border' seems almost rectangular 4mm x3mm slightly above that (and centrally) there is a small faded 'something'....under magnification these two combined almost appear to be a crown but like looking at clouds and making out shapes, the more you try to 'see' ....the more the mind 'creates'. Any ideas as to the red 'band' thank you Kind Regards David . Attached Images

28th August 2010, 12:37 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	There is a red painted band just above the ferrule of my Parang Nabur/Barbary Pirate sword . Just information to throw in there . Are you sure this is hand forged ? It almost looks cast from what I can see . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 28th August 2010 at 12:53 AM.

28th August 2010, 11:40 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	The other end of a spear???? Attached Images

29th August 2010, 02:07 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rick, when you mentioned 'cast' ....I originally assumed you meant 'crucible steel. Weapons and tools were made from cast and were often marked 'warranted cast steel' as a sign of the quality of metal. Now, I understand ...what you meant by cast was mould (mold ) 'formed' . All I can say is the surface is covered in 'micro pitting' caused by corrosion and not bubbles form during casting. The 'fullering' seems forged although under high magnification I can see some fine scratches, in line with the fullers...possibly grinding/file marks to 'tidy them up'. The socket is only hollow for 2/3 of its length the remaining third nearest the head is solid. Which again suggests to me that this design is to sustain 'hard impact'. ie the shaft end fitted into the socket would be flat (spreading the impact force) usually it would be pointed. The best analogy would be stiletto heels on a wooden floor compared to 'flat' shoes.....not that I've worn 'stiletto's recently The koftgari also strongly suggests that this was not a 'throw away' item, so throwing spear is very unlikely......surely it has to be a lance head ??? I must admit I am 'itching' to find out what is hidden below the black stabilised rust layer (is there a name for this ) but do not want to remove 'the age' from the piece. What if I carefully clean one of the facets of the blade ??? leaving the other 3 'natural' . If there is a lot of the koftgari surviving below this layer, it would give more information ....but would it de-value the piece ??? All opinions gratefully received Regards David Last edited by katana; 29th August 2010 at 08:52 PM. Reason: spelling

28th August 2010, 11:55 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Let's see some more detailed pictures of the faceted socket please . It looks so uniform from your pix . No waves in the surface; thick ...

29th August 2010, 12:16 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rick , I will try and get clearer close-ups and post them. Using a loupe I have been checking the surface to clues for the type of construction ....and discovered, what I think, is small amounts of silver koftgari designs. Near impossible to photograph clearly but evidence of stripes, a chevron and circles with small rays (sun ?). Now I have a problem, take the risk of removing the very old patina to reveal the remaining koftgari (good idea if a lot of it remains)....or leave as is ??? Regards David

29th August 2010, 12:36 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	By all means .... Leave as is ! From your pictures it just looks so uniform; no waves, lumps etc.