Ever heard of a cannononball .. ovoid?

[Jim McDougall]

Really interesting discussion! and I keep wondering, if this could have simply been an anomaly in casting shot, perhaps the mold became flawed, and the deformed ball was simply tossed aside. Although normally one would presume the iron would be reforged, but maybe this one missed?

Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired? It would seem that at near molten state, no amount of soaked wadding would have kept the powder from accidental detonation...in ths case, probably disastrous, with this notable deformed ball the surviving piece.

On another note, seeking possible industrial instance....

"...here is the very important exhibition of the anonyme society of the forges, usines and bronze, of Gilly (M. Aime Robert, administrator deleague). Excavators, pestle hammers, cranes, locomotives for manufactures and harbours, engines of flattening mills, and thier specialty is the construction of engines to fabricate 'the OVOID CANNON BALLS'.
"Universal Exhibition Paris, 1889"
C.H. Bartels, p.104

While I have no idea of the context here, the mention of these ovoid cannon balls caught my eye, and seen in the industrial possibilty.

I am hoping someone more familiar with manufacturing or engineering antiquities might have some ideas on these. It seems the term cannonball has become so colloquially and metaphorically used, it becomes difficult to search authentic references to them. Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs!

All best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

with the advent of rifled cannon and breech loaders in the latter half of the 19th century, the cannon shot would be essentially cylindrical with an ogival end to reduce air friction and a flattened end carrying the engaging bands on the circumference that would take the rifling (and also allow them to be stored on end so they would not roll around). the ogive at the end would give them an oval appearance. by 1889 i believe that spherical solid shot was essentially obsolete.

even solid round shot during the american civil war was usually mounted in a wooden sabot which would be strapped to the shot with two bands of tin plated iron. these were frequently made up with wadding, and a pre-measured and bagged charge of powder into a complete round of ammunition that could be shoved down the barrel in one go.

the charge would be set off by a primer which was a long tube containing the primer compound and a prick with a sharp end to penetrate the bag, the primer had a pull ring at the other end which would ignite the primer thru friction when pulled - with a long cord. in large artillery and naval guns, charge could be varied by adding extra bags of powder behind the shot.

one easily viewed example is the main 16" gun on the USS missouri used in steven segal's movie 'seige' where they show it being loaded with a rather ovoid shell, followed by six bags of powder. these were fired electrically, but had a chemical primer backup justincase.

a good reference on american civil war era projectiles is the civil war artillery site at this Linky which has photos of hundreds of different projectile types. a very good demonstration firing video is listed under 'cool stuff'. some of the photos in 'cool stuff' show typical confederate and union edged weapons.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired?

This not having to be the case, i have read that one of the risks of hot shot was that the ball could expand its size with too much heat and become problematic for loading.
So why wouldn't the thing also deform while being shot?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs! ...

Yes, your'e dead right; a famous name came immediately to my mind: Cannonball Adderley. Are you a jazz lover, Jim?

.

[Jim McDougall]

I neglected to note that my suggestion on flawed casting was also suggested by Dmitry, and although not established as a conclusion here, seems to remain plausible.

On the dynamics involved in firing, I wanted to thank Krockew for the fantastic and beautifully explained examples of firing and characteristics of these various projectiles. Along with the excellent example shown by Chris of the deformed shot from the battlefield, this material really begins to have fascinating dimension, and its great to learn more about the history of these cannons and firing.

Good example on the expansion of the metal when heated Fernando, and point well taken about heat expansion....really have had to watch tire inflation in travelling through these desert areas in temps up to 120 degrees indexed!!

Actually the more I look at the example Fernando has posted, it seems perhaps it might reflect distortion that might result in forward force as from being fired while extremely hot (as previously suggested). I am wondering if spherical shot when fired would spin or turn, or would the forward force keep it relatively fixed? more physics I guess, but if it was relatively fixed, the material would distort and begin to trail, yes?

On Chris' example, found on a California battlefield, I'm not sure the distortion here would be from heated shot as I dont think they would have used that in ths case. From what I understand, the heated shot was intended for incendiary results, and these would not have been required in a frontier battle where no structures were in place. It would have been logistically improbable as well IMO, so this example must have resulted from other causes. Even an excessive charge in firing would have only created a momentary burst of heat without duration and not been able to distort the shot, I would think.

Yup, definitely a music lover Nando!!! everything from blues to rock to heavy metal (wonder why they never had a group named cannonballs? ....and yes, I do know who Cannonball Adderly was !! Hard not to, one of the greats.


All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Sorry to come in late on this one with my .2 cents. Agreed it does resemble an iron cannon ball more than a mill ball. I bought what I thought was a cannonball a number of years ago, but under the grime, it proved to be a steel mill ball ( ).

I think this is a cannon ball, perhaps used as hotshot and deformed on impact. I have seen (hee hee) balls with flattened sides and bent/deformed bar-shot that struck hard structures.

Still another possibility is that this is a cannon ball made using the 'shot tower' method. I've included two sites explaining this innovative method of making cannon shot, and although one confesses that the balls produced were perfectly round, I beg to differ. Confederate cannon balls were often ovoid, had rough seams, were oblong, etc. In any case, a dropped shot could explain the deformity in times of desparation during war-time. I imagine it would still have fired poorly, though...

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/W...er_Columbus_OH

http://www.examiner.com/downtown-bal...pplied-physics

[Jim McDougall]

That is really fascinating information Mark!!! I had never heard of a shot tower, nor such a method of making shot and cannon balls. While you might come in late, you do so with a bang!!! great stuff!

Thanks for the links on the sites describing these towers too. It seems so odd to fabricate these with such an elaborate method...I always thought these were cast in molds, and it seems like dropping a blob of molten metal would produce all kinds of various shapes, like a rain or tear drop, who would have guessed this method would be effective. I cant get Galileo outa my head on this one
It seems odd in the note that the Baltimore tower was still producing shot until 1892, but although rifled guns had come in long before and were technically obsolete, I suppose the smoothbore cannon would have remained servicable ordnance as required and as on hand.

If a ball was indeed oblong or distorted in shape, how would that have effected its firing ? If the spherical shape maintained force and rotation to retain kinetic energy, would the distorted shape cause the shot to slow as discharged, and lessen its range or impact?

It really is fantastic to learn so much more on ballistics and artillery of these times, thank you guys for all this information, and please excuse my attempts at trying to describe my questions with the terminology which may or may not be correct, my exposure to physics and dynamics is limited at best!

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Mark, i'll be damned
I fully agree with Jim ... last but not least .
Hardly shot towers were implemented in Portugal: i am still trying to find out if hot shot was used here; not impossible, though.
Not wishing to go off topic, but something that fascinates me and which i have not been managing to spot where i have read it, is that the "pointed" bullet was idealized by Da Vinci in the XV-XVI century, although only implemented just the "other day".
The guy was simply unique.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If a ball was indeed oblong or distorted in shape, how would that have effected its firing ? If the spherical shape maintained force and rotation to retain kinetic energy, would the distorted shape cause the shot to slow as discharged, and lessen its range or impact?

Howdy Jim...

Given the limitations inherent to a smooth bore and the subsequent lack of rotational velocity (that would have otherwise been imparted by way of a rifled bore), I doubt small variations in (shot) shape would have much more than a nominal impact with regards to precision and accuracy - IMO such variation would likely have been taken into account in the application of artillery tactics at the time.

The "shot tower" method is new to me, and not only interesting but congruent with the deformation of my included example, which has a small and subtle (but noticeable) flat spot consistent with its bottom-biased distribution of mass. This has always given me the impression it either deformed upon impact (unlikely given it is doubtful it would reach a sufficiently high temperature to do so), or had been dropped before it had cooled sufficiently to harden to the point it would resist deformation, something I now realize is inherent to the "shot tower" manufacturing process.

[M ELEY]

The shot tower method was created in England at the end of the 18th century. The process was used in other countries, but quite popular here in the U.S. Jim, there's a shot tower in Virginia not far from me on the New River. It's a pretty cool site to see from the highway if you are ever passing this way, mate!

elEspadaAncha, your cannon balls could also be more primitively cast iron of the period. They resemble my Rev War American 2 pounders with their "off"- rounded shape.

Yes, Fernando, I definitely agree that hot shot is still in the running. I was unaware before I read this thread that it was ever used against anything but ships. I was going to suggest that a near-molten ball striking ocean water could deform this way, but I'm assuming we know for sure it was found buried on dry land? Likewise, IF it had been used against a ship, one could look for pick-marks to the hot shot where a naval crew would have been working double time with their spiked axes to dig it free from the decking and kick it over the side.( the only way to extinguish these monsters, as buckets of sea water were futile). Fascinating topic, folks.

[celtan]

This procedure was originated by the inmortal Leonardo DaVinci. The result was a predictable perfectly spherical form.

Best

M

[QUOTE=M ELEY]

Still another possibility is that this is a cannon ball made using the 'shot tower' method. I've included two sites explaining this innovative method of making cannon shot, and although one confesses that the balls produced were perfectly round, I beg to differ. .

www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM5CD3_Fort_Hayes_Shot_Tower_Columbus_OH
/QUOTE]

[celtan]

Guys, I remember seeing as a child some large ovoid metal shapes lying around in Galicia's ports. I believed initially that they were old cannon balls. I was eventually told by a local sailor that in old times, these were used in sailing boats for balance, "to keep the keel down, and the sail up". Somehow, these ovoid metal bodies were either attached under the boat, or in the lowest internal part of the ship. IIRC, they might have been placed near the keelboard housing.

My two "pesetas".

Best

M

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by celtan

...

see my post no. 24, the writer of that blurb on fort hayes was incorrect in implying cannon round iron shot was made in the tower. they probably made lead balls for cannister and for shrapnel shells, but iron cannon balls, not possible. not enough height for them to cool & solidify before hitting the water, which was to cushion the fall, NOT to solidify the shot. possibly they made round cannon shot there, but if so it was by moulding.

note that the ref. to the baltimore tower specifically mentions the production of iron cannon shot there was by use of moulds.

note the reference link to other world wide shot towers near the top of that page, all of which more correctly only refer to lead shot.

additionally:

In 1783, William Watts of Bristol took out a patent for a process "for making small shot perfectly globular in form and without dimples, notches and imperfections which other shot hereto manufactured usually have on their surface". By pouring lead into a sieve, and letting it cool as it falls, the lead forms into a perfect sphere before falling into a water tank at the bottom.

however, pig iron was frequently used as ballast in wooden ships as you noted, and would have been in whatever convenient sized chunks it was originally cast into. it was stored in the lowest part of the ship to ensure the stability of the vessel by countering any heavy weights (like cannon) above the centre of gravity as well as the lateral pressure of the sails which might have blown it over. (the english 'mary rose' is a good example of what happens when you get it wrong). the captain might on occasion shift the ballast around to 'trim' the vessel to gain an extra knot speed or two, or to improve the stability. cannon balls were of course stowed at the lowest part of the ship and were thus part of the overall ballast.

one of the jobs we had aboard ship, which was there from time immemorial, was to ensure that anything brought on board was stored stably, ballast, fuel, water, food, machinery parts, people, cargo, etc. all have to be stored so as to keep the ship not only level fore and aft, and from one side to the other, but vertically to ensure the stability of the vessel. as a marine engineer, i was trained in not only designing ships, but calculating their stability and how to test that stability. for any who are interested, here is the 'simplified stability testing for small passenger vessels' as an example. the unsimplified version is of course more complex Linky to PDF

as a coast guard marine inspector in new orleans, i actually supervised and approved these kind of tests...

[M ELEY]

No, no, wait! What if the tower was...

Just kidding. I'm one to admit when I'm wrong. Lead shot was made, but I've heard of lead cannon balls in times of desparation. Perhaps with it's low cooling point, they could have been made as such? In any case, our ovoid subject here was not a shot tower ball.

Ballast I suppose seems possible, but I would think that there were much better uses for iron, even pig iron. (early blacksmiths even fashioned tomahawk heads from it). After all, the majority of ballast in the past had been stones, right?

Could this ovoid mass of iron have been used for anything else? A reserve of iron for cannon balls during seiges? As a giant paperweight! Just thinking aloud...

[celtan]

Thank you very much for the explanation. Live to learn!

: )

Originally Posted by kronckew

see my post no. 24,

as a coast guard marine inspector in new orleans, i actually supervised and approved these kind of tests...