Firangi, or basket-hilted tulwar

Atlantia · 20th August 2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I wanted to point out the same soldering/welding question... I am also intrigued by the putty holding the blade: isn't it epoxy?
Overall, I have an uneasy feeling that the sword was recently assembled from repaired parts.
Hope to be wrong.

I had similar fears TBH.
Well, I didn't want to be the only person to make such observations.... But....

The welding is key for me. I initially wondered if it was gas or arc welded (I believe it's one or the other) and I decided that I think it's arc welded. It looks like it has been welded both sides of the guard on one side of the hilt and just on the inside of the guard on the other side.
So, whether that is 3 long welds or there is a forth, it would have produced enough heat to make most of the hilt uninhabitable for the thermal resin used to secure the blade.
It would have probobly boiled out of the front part, or caught fire.
If it was gas welded (a much slower process) then the heat would have been even greater.
So for me, the resin must have been replaced, no question.
Next thing I wondered about was if the welding was a repair, or to marry the guard to a different handle?
The work on the pierced guard looks rather fine, and the chiseling on the grip looks like a strange match to me in a way.
It could just be that this sword was repaired and the resin had to be replaced. Or it could be that the sword is a marriage.
I also hate being the bearer of possible bad news.
Best
Gene

katana · 21st August 2010, 04:57 PM

Hi Emanuel,
I too have a few reservations on your sword

The handle seems to have a seam on the top and bottom edges......perhaps, the two halves were added to cover a badly corroded handle. Welding heat would certainly liquidise the resin....but if the sword was supported with the blade pointing straight up (whilst welding) ....resin loss may have been reduced. Alternatively the handle could have been warmed, the blade removed and then after more heating the resin drained from the cavity and re-used. The welding seems alittle 'over the top' ....a finer welded seam could have been achieved with a MIG welder. However, this may indicate that less refined welding equipment was used, which, could further mean that the welding occured a while ago.

http://www.arcwelding.info/historyofarcwelding.html

Like Lew, I also feel that the spike has been cut, the edges are burred over and the end surface doe not look 'right'. I believe that on a number of this type of hilted sword the tang is attached to the pommel/pommel spike. I am wondering, if this is the case with this sword whether the spike was cut down, a hole drilled through it from the end (think pipe) the tang located into the hole and then welded to secure it. Once the weld is cleaned up/ground back it would be difficult to see the repair.

But, it is also possible that a change of blade would affect the dynamics of the sword and the removal of the spike was to aid function.

Whatever the outcome, it is a nice looking piece ....which could have been 'altered' some time ago.

Kind Regards David

Emanuel · 23rd August 2010, 02:33 PM

Great arguments!

The welding repair and the new putty do not bother me the least bit. How many times on this forum has someone asked about ways to fix loose handles with modern adhesives? That it may be epoxy instead of the old putty is not a problem.

Attached pics are of a near-identical hilt from OA. You can still see the marks on the blade from an earlier hilt arrangement, but this hilt looks solid, with no alterations or repairs. I haven't seen many of these hilts so they're not currently mass-produced. The hilt on my example could very well have been married to the balde recently, and David, your scenario with the cutting of the spike is plausible, but both pieces seem to be quite old.

Overall I still feel like this piece is representative of an old firangi so I'm happy with it

Emanuel

Atlantia · 23rd August 2010, 06:18 PM

Emanuel
Something hot touched against the resin would tell you if it is epoxy or something more 'authentic'.
I think your above comments are entirely pragmatic and sensible.
I would also remind you that as the only one of us who can actually handle the sword, YOU are in the best position to say if the hilt repairs are just repairs or more.
I would also reiterate that the resin would have to be replaced after the welding, so it may be nothing more sinister than that. In other words a welded repair and the consequential necessary replacement of some/all of the resin. In other words still a complete and original form.
What is your 'feeling'?
Best
Gene

ariel · 25th August 2010, 04:08 AM

BTW, anybody knows an easy recipe for the authentic Indian putty?
If we look at the ingredients ( shellac, turpentine, crushed limestone) it sure sounds like an easily obtainable sealing wax.

Emanuel · 10th September 2010, 04:33 PM

Hi Gene,

I haven't tested the adhesive yet but it would not surprise me or bother me if it were epoxy. The hilt, guard and blade seem to match very well, so the question turns to who would make this repair and for what purpose. I can't answer that, but the existence of OA's very similar set with no apparent repairs to it is a strong indication for me that the sword in question is an original assembly. The repairs might have been carried out in any number of scenarios, and overall I feel pretty good about the result.

Ariel, I think Indian putty is much like Nepalese laha, a mix of pine resin, beeswax and charcoal. A similar recipe for cutler's resin is 4 part pine pitch, 1 part beeswax and 1 part carnauba wax. I think you can replace the carnauba with charcoal or powedered lime or gipsum. Ssme time ago someone also posted a recipe for Cutler's Cement on the forum...

Emanuel

23rd August 2010, 02:33 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Great arguments! The welding repair and the new putty do not bother me the least bit. How many times on this forum has someone asked about ways to fix loose handles with modern adhesives? That it may be epoxy instead of the old putty is not a problem. Attached pics are of a near-identical hilt from OA. You can still see the marks on the blade from an earlier hilt arrangement, but this hilt looks solid, with no alterations or repairs. I haven't seen many of these hilts so they're not currently mass-produced. The hilt on my example could very well have been married to the balde recently, and David, your scenario with the cutting of the spike is plausible, but both pieces seem to be quite old. Overall I still feel like this piece is representative of an old firangi so I'm happy with it Emanuel Attached Images

10th September 2010, 04:33 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Gene, I haven't tested the adhesive yet but it would not surprise me or bother me if it were epoxy. The hilt, guard and blade seem to match very well, so the question turns to who would make this repair and for what purpose. I can't answer that, but the existence of OA's very similar set with no apparent repairs to it is a strong indication for me that the sword in question is an original assembly. The repairs might have been carried out in any number of scenarios, and overall I feel pretty good about the result. Ariel, I think Indian putty is much like Nepalese laha, a mix of pine resin, beeswax and charcoal. A similar recipe for cutler's resin is 4 part pine pitch, 1 part beeswax and 1 part carnauba wax. I think you can replace the carnauba with charcoal or powedered lime or gipsum. Ssme time ago someone also posted a recipe for Cutler's Cement on the forum... Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 10th September 2010 at 04:53 PM.

21st August 2010, 04:57 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Emanuel, I too have a few reservations on your sword The handle seems to have a seam on the top and bottom edges......perhaps, the two halves were added to cover a badly corroded handle. Welding heat would certainly liquidise the resin....but if the sword was supported with the blade pointing straight up (whilst welding) ....resin loss may have been reduced. Alternatively the handle could have been warmed, the blade removed and then after more heating the resin drained from the cavity and re-used. The welding seems alittle 'over the top' ....a finer welded seam could have been achieved with a MIG welder. However, this may indicate that less refined welding equipment was used, which, could further mean that the welding occured a while ago. http://www.arcwelding.info/historyofarcwelding.html Like Lew, I also feel that the spike has been cut, the edges are burred over and the end surface doe not look 'right'. I believe that on a number of this type of hilted sword the tang is attached to the pommel/pommel spike. I am wondering, if this is the case with this sword whether the spike was cut down, a hole drilled through it from the end (think pipe) the tang located into the hole and then welded to secure it. Once the weld is cleaned up/ground back it would be difficult to see the repair. But, it is also possible that a change of blade would affect the dynamics of the sword and the removal of the spike was to aid function. Whatever the outcome, it is a nice looking piece ....which could have been 'altered' some time ago. Kind Regards David

23rd August 2010, 06:18 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Emanuel Something hot touched against the resin would tell you if it is epoxy or something more 'authentic'. I think your above comments are entirely pragmatic and sensible. I would also remind you that as the only one of us who can actually handle the sword, YOU are in the best position to say if the hilt repairs are just repairs or more. I would also reiterate that the resin would have to be replaced after the welding, so it may be nothing more sinister than that. In other words a welded repair and the consequential necessary replacement of some/all of the resin. In other words still a complete and original form. What is your 'feeling'? Best Gene

25th August 2010, 04:08 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	BTW, anybody knows an easy recipe for the authentic Indian putty? If we look at the ingredients ( shellac, turpentine, crushed limestone) it sure sounds like an easily obtainable sealing wax.