Wobbly guards on Jians and Daos

Philip · 11th August 2010, 06:58 AM

Ever wonder why Japanese hilts have those thin metal washers (seppa) on either side of the tsuba? These plates take up the slack in case a thinner guard is substituted for another. More importantly, they can be used to compensate for shrinkage of the wood handle that would cause a formerly tight hilt to loosen.

With Japanese hilt construction (in which the blade is readily removabe), all this makes sense. With Chinese (and European) hilts that are secured by a peened pommel, it's a different story.

By the way, I don't suggest banging on the end of the tang to tighten a Chinese or Western-style hilt that's loose. Old wood can be dried-out and weak, or may have internal rot or worm damage.

fearn · 11th August 2010, 06:07 PM

I'm certainly not the expert the others are, but I have seen loose guards on modern wushu implements, and they're used essentially as castanets to make a more interesting performance--they rattle when swung. I don't know whether this is done deliberately, or whether the wushu artists are simply making the best of a bad implement (hate to call those things weapons), but there you have it. If it is done deliberately, it would be nice to find out how old the tradition is.

Best,

F

Philip · 12th August 2010, 08:11 AM

Wushu is choreography with practically no real martial content. Its modern incarnation is a creation of the communist government's sports ministry as a sugar-coated mishmosh of traditional martial arts forms to be promoted as exercise and entertainment. Hand-to-hand combat techniques were to be reserved for the military and police. Hence the insubstantial nature of wushu "weapons" whose thin blades make a nice noise as they are swung about.

Wushu does have antecedents in the flashy martial arts displays that were often part of the lowbrow entertainment of the marketplace in imperial China. These acts were sometimes paired with strongmen pulling massive bows or heaving large stone blocks, or boxers who would invite the wannabe pugilists in the audience to join them in a bout. Enterprising medicine pitchmen would often hire these guys as a "testimonial", and secret societies sometimes used the shows to attract young ne'er-do-wells as potential members.

The weapons used for such shtiks were often of exaggerated proportions, and more importantly, designed to make noise. An example is the broad falchion with 9 loose-rings on the dorsal side of the blade. Tridents would often have several large iron washers mounted on the shank between the tines and the socket that would jingle as the devices were brandished. The difference is that such show-weapons of the past were sometimes of considerable size and heft (although their blades of course were mostly unsharpened) whereas today's wushu weapons are almost all extremely light and flimsy.

Atlantia · 12th August 2010, 03:15 PM

Well, I'd have thought that they indeed DID fit tightly originally, but here is my old Dao, a proper old warrior and the guard is an atrocious fit:

Philip · 12th August 2010, 06:00 PM

I recognize that peidao as a mass produced pattern that was cranked out in large numbers at the end of the 19th cent., probably to arm hastily-recruited militias. They are quite common since many were brough back by foreign troops sent to quell the Boxer rebellion. Nothing about them indicates any sort of quality control, it seems that the components were made more or less to some sort of standard but without much care for fit and finish. When the saber was new, the pressure of the grip assembly kept the guard tight enough but as the wood shrank, the looseness was inevitable considering the oversized tang aperture.

One pattern of military saber of the 18th and early 19th cent., probably issued to the jianruiying or elite assault troops, had a solid brass guard peened to the blade via little spurs of metal raised from the tang's corners with a cold-chisel. The pommels and grips can be dismounted if necessary but those guards are on for good unless you get through the peening first.

Atlantia · 12th August 2010, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

I recognize that peidao as a mass produced pattern that was cranked out in large numbers at the end of the 19th cent., probably to arm hastily-recruited militias. They are quite common since many were brough back by foreign troops sent to quell the Boxer rebellion. Nothing about them indicates any sort of quality control, it seems that the components were made more or less to some sort of standard but without much care for fit and finish. When the saber was new, the pressure of the grip assembly kept the guard tight enough but as the wood shrank, the looseness was inevitable considering the oversized tang aperture.

One pattern of military saber of the 18th and early 19th cent., probably issued to the jianruiying or elite assault troops, had a solid brass guard peened to the blade via little spurs of metal raised from the tang's corners with a cold-chisel. The pommels and grips can be dismounted if necessary but those guards are on for good unless you get through the peening first.

LOL, my poor old Dao! Not exactly a glowing review!

Neil · 12th August 2010, 10:46 PM

Many of the "village smith" ring pommel dao I have seen have significant play and gap-page in the guard. I am wondering if there are examples of period shimming or something of that nature that others have seen. Could a certain amount of play just have been the norm for the time as well. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

11th August 2010, 06:58 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	seppa Ever wonder why Japanese hilts have those thin metal washers (seppa) on either side of the tsuba? These plates take up the slack in case a thinner guard is substituted for another. More importantly, they can be used to compensate for shrinkage of the wood handle that would cause a formerly tight hilt to loosen. With Japanese hilt construction (in which the blade is readily removabe), all this makes sense. With Chinese (and European) hilts that are secured by a peened pommel, it's a different story. By the way, I don't suggest banging on the end of the tang to tighten a Chinese or Western-style hilt that's loose. Old wood can be dried-out and weak, or may have internal rot or worm damage.

12th August 2010, 08:11 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	wushu, past and present Wushu is choreography with practically no real martial content. Its modern incarnation is a creation of the communist government's sports ministry as a sugar-coated mishmosh of traditional martial arts forms to be promoted as exercise and entertainment. Hand-to-hand combat techniques were to be reserved for the military and police. Hence the insubstantial nature of wushu "weapons" whose thin blades make a nice noise as they are swung about. Wushu does have antecedents in the flashy martial arts displays that were often part of the lowbrow entertainment of the marketplace in imperial China. These acts were sometimes paired with strongmen pulling massive bows or heaving large stone blocks, or boxers who would invite the wannabe pugilists in the audience to join them in a bout. Enterprising medicine pitchmen would often hire these guys as a "testimonial", and secret societies sometimes used the shows to attract young ne'er-do-wells as potential members. The weapons used for such shtiks were often of exaggerated proportions, and more importantly, designed to make noise. An example is the broad falchion with 9 loose-rings on the dorsal side of the blade. Tridents would often have several large iron washers mounted on the shank between the tines and the socket that would jingle as the devices were brandished. The difference is that such show-weapons of the past were sometimes of considerable size and heft (although their blades of course were mostly unsharpened) whereas today's wushu weapons are almost all extremely light and flimsy.

11th August 2010, 06:07 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm certainly not the expert the others are, but I have seen loose guards on modern wushu implements, and they're used essentially as castanets to make a more interesting performance--they rattle when swung. I don't know whether this is done deliberately, or whether the wushu artists are simply making the best of a bad implement (hate to call those things weapons), but there you have it. If it is done deliberately, it would be nice to find out how old the tradition is. Best, F

12th August 2010, 03:15 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well, I'd have thought that they indeed DID fit tightly originally, but here is my old Dao, a proper old warrior and the guard is an atrocious fit:

12th August 2010, 06:00 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	I recognize that peidao as a mass produced pattern that was cranked out in large numbers at the end of the 19th cent., probably to arm hastily-recruited militias. They are quite common since many were brough back by foreign troops sent to quell the Boxer rebellion. Nothing about them indicates any sort of quality control, it seems that the components were made more or less to some sort of standard but without much care for fit and finish. When the saber was new, the pressure of the grip assembly kept the guard tight enough but as the wood shrank, the looseness was inevitable considering the oversized tang aperture. One pattern of military saber of the 18th and early 19th cent., probably issued to the jianruiying or elite assault troops, had a solid brass guard peened to the blade via little spurs of metal raised from the tang's corners with a cold-chisel. The pommels and grips can be dismounted if necessary but those guards are on for good unless you get through the peening first.

12th August 2010, 10:46 PM	#7
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	Many of the "village smith" ring pommel dao I have seen have significant play and gap-page in the guard. I am wondering if there are examples of period shimming or something of that nature that others have seen. Could a certain amount of play just have been the norm for the time as well. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks