Moukhala Rifle

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice peices Martin and great data Jim.

Jim, for a man who doesn't know guns you certainly made an entrance with that post. I have never studied firearms of any kind. I shot a lot but that is as far as the romance goes. I'd be interested to see what Philip brings to the table if he catches this thread.

What I like about these long arms and in in particular what Martin shows in the images, is that that display well and are of impressive proportions. I have read in historical accounts of the deadly long range capabilities of these rifles where lesser modern carbines stood no chance at a distance.
I can only imagine the charge needed to hurl a large calibre shot down those long barrels over such distance, which brings me to an interesting point, these old barrels must have been well proofed to withstand the charge of the shot and the harsh climates and situations they faced even though they are not over heated to the extent as repeating arms are.
Equally as interesting as Jim notes, is how simplicity in the action kept these alive for so long where modern arms would eventually have no use due to lack of cartridges.

The ivory stock and the coral, especially the size of the ivory stock I like very much.

Martin, I'd be interested in seeing the other or others to compare varieties.

Gav

PS, I must add, there are the circle motifs previously discussed at length.

[mjamerks]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Nice peices Martin and great data Jim.

Jim, for a man who doesn't know guns you certainly made an entrance with that post. I have never studied firearms of any kind. I shot a lot but that is as far as the romance goes. I'd be interested to see what Philip brings to the table if he catches this thread.

What I like about these long arms and in in particular what Martin shows in the images, is that that display well and are of impressive proportions. I have read in historical accounts of the deadly long range capabilities of these rifles where lesser modern carbines stood no chance at a distance.
I can only imagine the charge needed to hurl a large calibre shot down those long barrels over such distance, which brings me to an interesting point, these old barrels must have been well proofed to withstand the charge of the shot and the harsh climates and situations they faced even though they are not over heated to the extent as repeating arms are.
Equally as interesting as Jim notes, is how simplicity in the action kept these alive for so long where modern arms would eventually have no use due to lack of cartridges.

The ivory stock and the coral, especially the size of the ivory stock I like very much.

Martin, I'd be interested in seeing the other or others to compare varieties.

Gav

PS, I must add, there are the circle motifs previously discussed at length.

Hi Gav

hereby some pics of the other rifles.
The second one from the top is an Algerian miquelet rifle with signed octogonal barrel.
Great lock.

Rgds

Martin

[fernando]

I have once read that the shape of the butt like in Martin's example, is intended to allow the gun to stand upright on the ground, to facilitate its barrel loading while the user stays mounted.
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have once read that the shape of the butt like in Martin's example, is intended to allow the gun to stand upright on the ground, to facilitate its barrel loading while the user stays mounted.
Fernando

Interesting observation Fernando and a very nice display Martin, they look great with the horns attached with each rifle, thank you for sharing.

Regards

Gavin

[mjamerks]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have once read that the shape of the butt like in Martin's example, is intended to allow the gun to stand upright on the ground, to facilitate its barrel loading while the user stays mounted.
Fernando

Hi Fernando

Thats correct,you can stand the gun upright,I didnt expect that first time.
Now I know why.
Thanks.

Martin

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by mjamerks

Hi Gav

hereby some pics of the other rifles.
The second one from the top is an Algerian miquelet rifle with signed octogonal barrel.
Great lock.

Rgds

Martin

Hello everyone. I am also NEW on this Forum. Martin: Absolutely GREAT looking Moukhala Rifle with Snaphaunce lock. I have one similar, but plain and mostly undecorated. But in very good solid condition. Since mine was plain and I bought it at a good price, I sent the barrel to Bob Hoyt in Pennsylvania and had a barrel liner installed. I still have to re-assemble it, then it will be in safe shooting condition. I will post pictures at a later date here. I have other Islamic arms - in shooting condition.
Martin: That is a GREAT looking Algerian miquelet lock rifle. I'm looking for one myself, but no luck yet. Thanks for sharing your collection. I'm still wiping the drual off my mouth.

[mjamerks]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hello everyone. I am also NEW on this Forum. Martin: Absolutely GREAT looking Moukhala Rifle with Snaphaunce lock. I have one similar, but plain and mostly undecorated. But in very good solid condition. Since mine was plain and I bought it at a good price, I sent the barrel to Bob Hoyt in Pennsylvania and had a barrel liner installed. I still have to re-assemble it, then it will be in safe shooting condition. I will post pictures at a later date here. I have other Islamic arms - in shooting condition.
Martin: That is a GREAT looking Algerian miquelet lock rifle. I'm looking for one myself, but no luck yet. Thanks for sharing your collection. I'm still wiping the drual off my mouth.

Hi Rick

Interesting that you actually shoot with these weapons.
In the netherlands you also have some groups that practice this kind of shooting.
The Algerian was a great find,somewhere in Belgium.
You dont find them often.
But there must be a lot out there since belgium and france occupied a lot of countries in Nort africa in the past.
Would love to see pics from your collection.
Rgds

Martin

[Philip]

Hi, gang
Have been away from the forum awhile, just noticed this thread. Martin has so far posted a number of pics showing several guns from the Maghrib. Some clarification is in order.

1. The first gun on the thread is indeed Moroccan, called an "afedali" (Elgood, FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, London 1995, quoting an early 20th c. French source), characterized by its broad flaring butt. Jim, the lock on this gun is not a so-called miquelet, rather it is a snaphaunce (schnapphahn), an early flint mechanism of Dutch origin. What's the difference? The miquelet has a large external mainspring and a combined, L-shaped frizzen and pan-cover. Its cock is released by a sear which moves horizontally through an aperture in the lockplate. The snaphaunce has an internal mainspring and sear, and the frizzen and pan-cover are entirely separate units. Whereas on a miquelet, the flint's striking the frizzen causes it to flip forward exposing the pan to the shower of sparks, the snaphaunce relies on an internal pushrod system to slide the pan-cover open automatically as the flint strikes the frizzen and pushes it up and forward out of the way of the pan.

2. Later, a picture of an Algerian gun was posted. These have elongated triangular butts, no trigger-guards, and miquelet locks. In the case of these, the miquelet is a particular type originating in Spain, sometime in the latter 16th cent., called "llave de agujeta". It saw only limited popularity in its homeland but was widely used in Algeria until the 20th cent. In the Iberian it was very soon superseded by the familiar "llave patilla" which is the type copied by the Ottomans. The difference: Agujeta locks have a complex sear system derived from wheellocks, and no half-cock detent (a manually-set dog catch acts as a safety). The patilla has a half-cock
setting which blocks the trigger, and its sear is simple and robust. In my experience, the agujeta locks of Algeria, though robust and well-made, are far less efficient. The sear easily works itself out of adjustment due to wear and tear, and the dog catch is a comparatively clumsy feature.

(for more information on Spanish miquelet history and types, see Jas. D. Lavin, A HISTORY OF SPANISH FIREARMS, NY, 1965)

[fernando]

Olá Filipe,

Thanks for bringin in the expertized input .

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Philip

Hi, gang
Have been away from the forum awhile, just noticed this thread. Martin has so far posted a number of pics showing several guns from the Maghrib. Some clarification is in order.

1. The first gun on the thread is indeed Moroccan, called an "afedali" (Elgood, FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, London 1995, quoting an early 20th c. French source), characterized by its broad flaring butt. Jim, the lock on this gun is not a so-called miquelet, rather it is a snaphaunce (schnapphahn), an early flint mechanism of Dutch origin. What's the difference? The miquelet has a large external mainspring and a combined, L-shaped frizzen and pan-cover. Its cock is released by a sear which moves horizontally through an aperture in the lockplate. The snaphaunce has an internal mainspring and sear, and the frizzen and pan-cover are entirely separate units. Whereas on a miquelet, the flint's striking the frizzen causes it to flip forward exposing the pan to the shower of sparks, the snaphaunce relies on an internal pushrod system to slide the pan-cover open automatically as the flint strikes the frizzen and pushes it up and forward out of the way of the pan.

2. Later, a picture of an Algerian gun was posted. These have elongated triangular butts, no trigger-guards, and miquelet locks. In the case of these, the miquelet is a particular type originating in Spain, sometime in the latter 16th cent., called "llave de agujeta". It saw only limited popularity in its homeland but was widely used in Algeria until the 20th cent. In the Iberian it was very soon superseded by the familiar "llave patilla" which is the type copied by the Ottomans. The difference: Agujeta locks have a complex sear system derived from wheellocks, and no half-cock detent (a manually-set dog catch acts as a safety). The patilla has a half-cock
setting which blocks the trigger, and its sear is simple and robust. In my experience, the agujeta locks of Algeria, though robust and well-made, are far less efficient. The sear easily works itself out of adjustment due to wear and tear, and the dog catch is a comparatively clumsy feature.

(for more information on Spanish miquelet history and types, see Jas. D. Lavin, A HISTORY OF SPANISH FIREARMS, NY, 1965)

Thanks Philip for the information. Most helpful. Do you know of any Internet forums that have collectors interested in these type of guns? Rick.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Thanks Philip for the information. Most helpful. Do you know of any Internet forums that have collectors interested in these type of guns? Rick.

Huh?!!!
I thought this WAS an internet forum.......what the heck are we, chopped liver???!!!! It seems like we have collectors here interested in these types of guns too....kinda what we were talking about.


Philip, outstanding clarification on the miguelet term, thank you so much for your detailed explanation....its great to have you back with us!!!

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by mjamerks

Hi Rick

Interesting that you actually shoot with these weapons.
In the netherlands you also have some groups that practice this kind of shooting.
The Algerian was a great find,somewhere in Belgium.
You dont find them often.
But there must be a lot out there since belgium and france occupied a lot of countries in Nort africa in the past.
Would love to see pics from your collection.
Rgds

Martin

Hello again Martin. Thanks for the respose. Actually, there are a number of the Algerian miquelet (sometimes referred to as toe-lock miquelet due to the external safety at the toe of the lock) rifles. But most are all highly decorated and seem to show up only in auctions - especially Christie's or Southby's - at big prices. There also seems to be a few in the UK, for some reason.
Yes, I will gather some photos and post here in the near future. Have you found any Internet forums that seem to have members interested in these guns? I know we are a minority among gun collectors. Rick.