Appreciation

[drdavid]

I think I have a handle on what you are getting at now Alan.
As you know I am a keen collector of Japanese art and I have explored my emotional links to this but until you asked the question I had not really thought about my emotional links to the keris.
They seem to stem from my family which is not because of Javanese connections, I am fifth generation australian, with Irish and English on both sides. My family does not follow a pattern of occupations, we have tradesmen, professionals, farmers, public servants, priests, artists and a few eccentrics including my grandfather's brother and his son. Both sadly deceased, both fascinating gents.
Stan my great uncle owned a private museum at Kurnell south of Sydney. Kurnell is famous in Australia as the place where Captain Cook first set foot on mainland Australia. It was full of exotic things, jaws of great white sharks, old divers suits, steam cars, convict chains, settlers gear and also some old weaponary. And now that I think back I'm sure that was the first place I ever saw a keris. Stan told me some of his collection came from the East Indies, which was as exotic a place as a kid could think of in Australia in the early 1960's.
His son Roy was a dealer in second hand stuff, not antiques just second hand anything. His shop was in Sutherland which I know was not far from where you grew up. He accumulated personal collections of all sorts of things, I remember his shaving mug collection particularly. Roy gave me my first edged weapon, an old Martini Henry bayonet, and whenever something else turned up he would let me know. I collected knives and swords and bayonets for quite a long time but eventually they all got put away and forgotton about.........Until somewhere 40 years or more down the track keris turned up in my life again and it immediately became necessary to collect them. Those 2 relatives have a lot to answer for. I remember them fondly

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

A bit of a correction. It's not really a quick thought, it had been in my mind for quite sometime, i just recalled it back and put it in some organisation.

Well it seems that my mind is working at the obvious surface level. I gotta change my mindset from an engineer to an architect.

As for me, my interest in keris probably came from old movies. Sensing my interest, my grandfather made me a wooden keris when i was 6 years old. I played with it everyday. In the same year my second uncle (which is younger than me) and i sneaked into his father's room, opened the closet to handle my great grandfather's keris.

Probably it is not really interest in keris, but in weapons actually- because i also liked other daggers/machettes and if i can i would also like to play with my great grandfather's shotgun, but that one is kept by another relative.

I can't forget that day. That's the first time i have the thought - One day I'm gonna get a keris for me!!

[David]

Like Rick i grew up on the ocean (or close enough to get to in a 20 min. car ride) in an area that historically saw a lot of sailing, boat building, fishing etc. I suppose i had very early dreams of going to sea and found fascination at a young age with whalers and their travels to exotic places like the South Seas. Read Moby Dick and Treasure Island at a very young age and devoured historical books on whaling and pirates. So right there i suppose there is the set-up for a love of the South Seas and swords. But this does seem, at least to me, to be a bit of a given for most children, at least in the western world. Sort of like my early interest in dinosaurs. I mean, isn't that every small boy's interest.
I have also always had a very strong interest in anything old, so even as a kid i loved kicking around flea markets and antique stores. They have always been like museums to me, except that if you have the money you can actually buy the stuff and bring it home with you. But even people's old junk is interesting to me, appealing, i suppose, to the sociologist is me.
Now i also have always had a strong interest in science, the stars, space travel and science fiction. Again, not all that strange for small boy growing up in the American culture. I have also been a collector of things since i was very young and have always collected rocks, fossils, shells, coins, stamps, feathers, old bottles, old cameras, etc. Yes, this drives my wife crazy as i still have substantial amounts of all these collections about the house.
As a teenager i began to find interest in eastern philosophies and mysticism. My mom used to read stories of Greek mythology, Native American legends and folktales to me as a child that were all packed with acts of remarkable deeds and magick. This led me onto a spiritual path and a strong interest in the concepts of magick and how different cultures apply themselves to magick and the search for spiritual connection. So this has been a focus of study for me for the past 35 years.
So, one fine day in 1981 i was on vacation in New Hampshire and i was kicking around an antiques flea market. I discovered a Moro kris that just grabbed my attention and imagination. Neither i nor the seller had any clue what it was, but of course i had to have it. I was living in NYC at the time so when i got home i took it into the curator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art to find out what i had bought. He IDed it as Moro and somewhat misleadingly discribed them as pirates and spoke just a bit about the mystical connection the Moros had with these swords. I had to know more, but i didn't have much luck. No too much later a self-styled "shaman" friend of mine was leaving town and wanting to lighten his load. He knew of my interest in my Moro kris and offered to sell me a Javanese keris he had. I could see the connection in the blade form, but didn't really fully understand it at the time. Still, i had a hard time finding any information, not really knowing where to look. Then i just happened to find a Hilton Horizons travel magazine that a street book vendor was selling with 2 javanese keris on the cover. Inside was the article "Beauty, Magic and Powers of the Keris" with numerous full page color photos. It describes a number of legends of the keris and the (again misleading) notion that all keris were made from meteoric pamor. So we now have this incredible convergence of life long interests for me. The South Seas, pirates, magick and mysticism, heroic legends of valor, glory and bravery and, last, but not least, star metal from outer space. And as if to add just one more synchronicity i come to discover that one of the early accepted published works on keris was written by Gardner who i was already well aware of as the father of modern Wicca. Gentlemen, i think this is what is commonly referred to as "The Perfect Storm".
It took a few more years until i discovered the internet before my collection really began to flourish. I must say that i blame this site. The only other reference i had managed to find up until then is the wonderful coffee table book Court Arts of Indonesia, but stumbling upon this place was like a godsend.....well, perhaps not for my pocket book. From 1981 - 2004 i had collected only the 2 blades. Since then i have added well over 50 blades to my collection.

[A. G. Maisey]

I most sincerely thank you all, gentlemen.

The responses that are coming in now are exactly in the order of what I was looking for, and they demonstrate, I believe, the emotional foundations of our shared interest, not only that, but those emotional foundations seem to have a distinct similarity , a similarity that in all cases stretches back to the time when we were children. None of us are now capable of considering any keris in the absence of that stored experience that stretches back through our lives and creates a mindset that automatically comes into play when we bring the keris to mind.

Seems to me that we have "bought the story", and cannot give it back.

I do hope we will continue to get further contributions to this thread.

Dr. David, it seems I have had some dealings with your relatives.

I have visited that musium at Kurnell when I was a kid, and I also made purchases from several antique dealers who had shops in Sutho. I bought a Moro keris from a bloke in the arcade that runs through to Eton St., and I bought a shamshir from a dealer who had his shop down where the old movie show used to be in Boyle St.. In fact, there seemed to be several dealers and an auction room in that Boyle St. location, they changed position from time to time, and might have even been the same person, I don't know.I bought a few other things from the Boyle St. dealers too, I forget what now, but they got regular visits from me.

Sutho has changed a lot now. Used to be a blacksmith in Boyle Lane. Still got and use a spud bar that my dad got him to make from a truck axle in 1948. One of my kids recently bought a yuppy style townhouse in one of the new little dead end streets that sit in behind President Avenue, just up the road from where I went to school in a weatherboard classroom with no heating in winter, and no insulation in summer. President Avenue was a gravel road then.

Time changes all things.

[Rick]

"Time changes all things ."

Is that not one reason we collect ?
An attempt to freeze (in a tangible form) that which is being lost .

[BluErf]

David, there are many points in your experience that resonates strongly with mine. The keris is like the jack that we use to plug into "the Matrix".

For me, years after my initial connection and bonding with the keris, I had a second "epiphany" of sorts. That was when I got in touch with the North Malay Peninsula kerises. It is hard to describe, but it had to do with the beauty of the flow of lines in the keris blades, the sheaths and the hilts, and the indescribable aesthetic presence that top-class pieces exuded. It changed the way I looked at kerises, and a keris was no longer just a seemingly pretty and interesting thing that I collect. It had to have that 'balanced flow of the lines' perfectly melded with the natural beauty of the organic parts and the man-made beauty of the metal parts. The keris became something that captured the intangible inspired vision of the makers. Something wondrous taken out of the unseen realm and given shape using temporal materials... It was a whole new experience for me, and I guess it is true that I'm looking for my "next fix" in my collecting journey, and I haven't been quite getting a sufficiently high dosage... ...and it sometimes drives me mad thinking about it...

[A. G. Maisey]

No Rick, I don't think so.

It may be one of the reasons public collections are put together, but I am increasingly certain that the reason we --- that is, you, I and other private collectors collect is based purely in emotion.

The idea of conserving something may come as a later, logical addition to our primary emotional drive, but without emotion at the wheel, there would be no collection to conserve.

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

What can be said that has not been put forth already? I´ll add a spin:

Buying is a ritual.

Acquiring new pieces to ones collection is a task of advancing the "whole" of which the act of acquisition - the ritual - is a tangible part of. The "whole" in question is the egotistical/spiritual pursuit of becoming one with something/separating oneself from the current. - Escapism or pursuit if you will.

The collection per se is thus a vehicle one uses to get to ones desired destination which, of course, is an oxymoron as the more experienced/jaded the collector becomes the further the destination appears as there really is no destination to be reached by the act of collecting. This so unless we see the process of collecting per se as the destination by which time you realize this your original motives have given way to a new set of motives, which in turn feed the phenomena from another perspective until yet another layer of motives surface. This is what we see as maturation though it really is just a new beginning; a newly found amateurism and the joy that comes with it. Or, the acceptance of a failure which gives way for a new attempt from a different angle. Thus the process of collecting is, in itself, the desired destination in motion.


The logic behind?

You are what you buy - you want to become one with what has previously described in this thread as the story? - you become one by performing the ritual(s)!

Or rather, in you subconsciousness you rationalize it to be so. There was a time (speaking from a typical Western mindset now) that we were what we did. As the modernization brought fragmentation and multiple virtual and real realities that shattered the route of becoming by doing a new route was established: becoming by consuming. On a consumer culture we manifest and actualize ourselves (again speaking from the typical Western mindset and surroundings) by consuming. Thus the acquisition of kerises (buying) on a way really does, on a perverted way of sorts continue the original tasks the keris originally stood for. On a way perhaps the roles of the keris have not changed but the surroundings and the ways in which we fullfil and describe these roles in these surroundings have.

What we are discussing here is, after all, (consumer) behaviour.

If it is so that consumerism and marketing have taken the role (again speaking from the typical Western viewpoint) of religion and spiritualism then the act of collecting is a religious/spiritual ritual. Yes?

Can it be so that the original keris culture has not ceased to exist but that it has - partly - found new ways to express itself on the 21st century via and by the collecting community that centers on it?

So, yes. I agree that the story is it. What I am interested though is what gave initiation for the story and motivates it if not escapism or pursuit as put forth above?

Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I feel that what you have given us is what I would categorise as "modern marketing theory" :-

the same psychological game that (supposedly) gets us to buy that cherry red , drop top sports car with 400 horses under the bonnet

we have seen the nightly ads on TV, with Little Miss Lovely draped over it in almost nothing except a diamond choker and impossibly high heels

we have seen the ads in "Financial Review" of it parked outside the most exclusive club in town

we've got a spare 3 million in our hip pocket

what better way to get rid of it than by buying a few dreams?

But can we scratch a wee bit deeper than this?

Come back to my original post to this thread.

Why did Josh Bell take $32 in the subway on one day, and $25,000 the following day when he climbed onto a stage?

What is the difference between a painting that is attributed to Vermeer, and one that is not?

Maybe what you have written is touching on what I'm trying to get at, but I feel it is touching on it as an overlay, not as a part of the foundation.

What is going on in our minds?

Perhaps you may care to think a little more on this question?

[VANDOO]

I CAN'T BREAK ANY NEW GROUND HERE BUT WILL TRY AND EXPLAIN MY PERSONEL ATTRACTION AND INTREST AND MY REASONS FOR IT. THE PERSONALITY I WAS BORN WITH HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE INTERESTED IN MOST EVERYTHING AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY OBSERVANT. I STARTED WITH BUGS AND HAD A COLLECTION OF SORTS WHEN I WAS TWO YEARS OLD.
MY INTREST IS DRAWN BY CURIOSITY OF ANYTHING NEW, DIFFERENT OR UNUSUAL. ANY NEW THING IS NEVER ORDINARY UNTIL YOU ARE AROUND MANY FOR A LONG TIME AND SOME THINGS SUCH AS THE KERIS NEVER BECOME ORDINARY. MY INTRESTS ARE MANY AND I AM LIKE A BUTTERFLY GOING QUICKLY FROM ONE FLOWER TO THE NEXT. MY INTRESTS IN SUCH THINGS AS KERIS REMAIN BUT TIME AND OTHER THINGS TAKE ME AWAY UNTIL I RETURN AGAIN.
THERE IS A MUCH GREATER LIKELYHOOD OF CHILDREN RAISED IN A KERIS CULTURE BECOMING INTERESTED IN THEM. BUT I THINK THE NORM IN THAT CULTURE IS TO FOLLOW THE TRADITIONAL USES AND CEREMONIES RELATED TO THE KERIS. TO COLLECT LOTS OF KERIS BECAUSE YOU LIKE THEM WOULD PROBABLY BE UNUSUAL IN THEIR SOCIETY AND OF COURSE ONLY THE WEALTHY COULD AFFORD TO COLLECT MANY.
I READ SOME ADVENTURE BOOKS WHERE THE KERIS WAS MENTIONED WHEN I WAS A YOUNG BOY AND SAW MY FIRST KERIS IN THE 1960'S. IT WAS SOMETHING NEW AND EXOTIC AND THE PRICE WAS FIVE DOLLARS SO I BOUGHT IT. IT WAS NOT A GREAT SPECIMIN BUT THE PATTERNS IN THE BLADE AND THE BELIEF THAT ALL KERIS BLADES WERE MADE FROM METEOR IRON MADE IT VERY INTERESTING AND ATTRACTIVE TO ME.
THIS MADE ME LOOK FOR INFORMATION AND I FOUND A LIMITED AMOUNT AT THE LIBRARY BUT LEARNED MORE FROM AN OLD COLLECTOR AND DEALER WHO HAD ACTUALLY TRAVELED THE WORLD AND FOUGHT IN THE WAR. HE HAD A LOT OF KNOWLEGE AND TOLD GREAT STORIES EVEN THOUGH WHAT HE HAD FOR SALE WAS WAY OUT OF MY PRICE RANGE AT THE TIME. I ALWAYS LOOKED FORWARD TO VISITING WITH HIM TWICE A YEAR AT THE LOCAL GUN SHOW.
I PREFER A WEAPON THAT HAS BEEN OWNED AND USED BY A PERSON IN THE CULTURE FROM WHICH IT COMES. THESE KERIS HAVE A HISTORY AND STORY THAT GOES WITH THEM EVEN THOUGH WE MAY NOT KNOW IT. I LOOK AT THE WEAR AND PATINA AND PONDER THE STORY AND HISTORY, I ALSO APPRECIATE THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE PATTERNS AND BEAUTY IN THE BLADE AND THE WOOD. I CAN STAND AND LOOK AT THE PATTERNS IN A GOOD VAN GOUGH PAINTING AND CAN DO THE SAME WITH A COMPLICATED SWIRLING PATTERN IN A KERIS BLADE.
PERHAPS WE ALL HAVE A NEED TO STUDY AND LEARN WHICH LEADS US TO OUR VARIED INTRESTS. WHILE SOME MAY ONLY COLLECT THE KNOWLEGE OTHERS OF US NEED THE ACTUAL OBJECTS TO STRENGTHEN AND ENRICH THE LEARNING PROCESS. SOME OF US GET ENJOYMENT SHAREING WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED AND OTHERS GAURD THEIR KNOWLEGE JELOUSLY. EACH TO HIS OWN
SOMETHING NEW AND UNUSUAL WILL ATTRACT MORE INTEREST THAN SOMETHING COMMON AND ORDINARY.

WAYS AND REASONS TO COLLECT.
1. A GREAT EMPU HAS PASSED AWAY AND THEREFORE NO MORE KERIS OR FITTINGS WILL BE MADE BY HIM. THIS WILL MAKE IT ATTRACTIVE AS AN INVESTMENT FOR SOME AND OTHERS WILL WISH TO HAVE ONE FOR SENIMENTAL REASONS OR PERHAPS SPIRITUAL REASONS AS THE KERIS WOULD HAVE THE SPECIAL POWERS THAT EMPU WAS KNOWN TO PUT INTO HIS WORK.
2. THE MYSTIQUE OR POWER ASSOCIATED WITH THE MAKER OR THE FAMOUS OWNERS OR FAMILY OR PERHAPS OF SOME GREAT BATTLE OR DEED. A KERIS CAN NOT GAIN FAME WITHOUT THE GREAT DEEDS OF THE OWNER.
3. SOME MAY START COLLECTING BECAUSE THEY SEE SOMEONES COLLECTION. IT MAY BE BECAUSE THEY WISH TO COMPETE WITH THEM AND OUT DO THEM OR JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FACINATED BY THE KERIS AND THE STORIES.

I DON'T COLLECT BECAUSE OF FADS AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INDEPENDENT AND WENT MY OWN WAY WEATHER IT WAS POPULAR OR NOT. THIS HAS SERVED ME WELL AGAINST SALES AND PROMOTION AS I BUY WHAT I LIKE NOT WHAT THEY SAY I SHOULD BUY. AND I WILL JUST AS QUICKLY BUY A NEW KERIS IF THE QUALITY AND PRICE ARE GOOD AS I WILL BUY AN OLD ONE.

[Laowang]

While we may be urged to appreciate works of art objectively, I'm not sure in truth anything is really appreciated objectively. Anything meant to be appreciated for its aesthetic content is received subjectively; we've been socialized since birth in the ways in which we respond to things. A painting by Vermeer or Picasso or Cai Guo-Qiang is beautiful or moving because we have been socialized to perceive it that way, and respond to it in that manner, although of course as humans we do not all react in the same manner.

Hence, the story is important. It may be the story the creator of the object intended, or didn't intend, or a completely separate story we bring to the object. Perhaps it doesn't matter. Once an object enters the world it becomes the property of the world, and open to multiple readings.

Traditionally collectors have collected and appreciated objects for all sorts of reasons. Traditional Chinese literati collected paintings, poems, and rubbings of ancient stele not only for perceived intrinsic beauty, but also because it was something one did as literati, just as you also painted and wrote poetry. It was also a form of recreation, in which you and your friends would get together, have a drink, and appreciate some items from your collection. (In that regard, this forum serves a similar purpose, but without the alcoholic beverages)

Victorian English collected for a number of reasons; the expanding English empire gave them access to many more things. Partly collecting was a demonstration of their reach and power across the globe, but they also had great curiosity for things (orchids, rhododendrons), a burgeoning interest in science (insects, birds, fossils, minerals), and many other motivations that don't come currently to mind.

As an occasional collector of keris who grew up in relatively mainstream American culture, there were a great many things to prompt an interest, some of which has been mentioned by others. Novels and stories, from Conrad to Robert Louis Stevenson to Tolkein; interest in knights, pirates, South Seas adventures; modern incarnations such as Dungeons & Dragons, etc.

I first came across keris several years ago, during a trip to Singapore with my wife to visit in-laws. My brother-in-law had a beautiful old keris tajong he was holding for a Malay friend, who was living abroad for work. At the instruction of the friend, he kept it in a cabinet near the entrance to his flat, with the hilt facing the door; according to his friend, this would help protect him and his family. This certainly caught my attention; not so much that I viewed the keris in any way as magical, but that someone had crafted it at some point in time with that belief, and others continued to possess it with the same belief. In the world we currently live in, where the vast majority of objects that surround us are produced somewhat indifferently in factories, and are identical from piece to piece, the keris is remarkable for this contrast.

Perhaps most importantly, for me, the keris is meant to be held. In this regard it is unlike so many other things that one could collect. The hulu is designed for one's hand, and the weight and form of the blade to be properly handled by that hand. The heft of a keris in one's hand provides a kind of tactile pleasure unequaled by any other collectible object I can think of. And the range of weights and fits of keris, from light and (relatively) delicate cotengs and keris selit, to large Bugis and Balinese blades, only makes that distinction from other objects even greater.

[BluErf]

Would appreciation not have its root in how we value things? We appreciate an object because we assign a high value to it. We would never appreciate anything that we feel is useless, cheap or not beautiful - in effect anything that is of no worth to us.

If we appreciate something, perhaps we would do more to affirm that value we see in the object. That could include collecting, protecting, singing praises, consuming, ensure the continued transmission of that object, etc etc.

Then going back to question of why do we value things - how about evolutionary effects? If something we appreciate is good for us and helps us survive, then, wouldn't a well-honed sense of understanding what is good for us help us survive better? With much of the human race no longer concerned with finding food on a day-to-day basis, and with the new 'unnatural' pressures arising from our social circumstance, perhaps that sense of appreciation has moved from basic necessities to more unusual things like art and kerises. Things that help us handle modern life better.

Perhaps the world is becoming so literal and visual, and the mysterious world is no longer that mysterious, we appreciate objects that help us feel that sense of mystery and wonder; something that allows us to hold on to the hope that the world is more than it seems; there are more possibilities; I can break out of this tired and shrinking world!!! This is something that helps us bear with our present world.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Perhaps the world is becoming so literal and visual, and the mysterious world is no longer that mysterious, we appreciate objects that help us feel that sense of mystery and wonder; something that allows us to hold on to the hope that the world is more than it seems; there are more possibilities; I can break out of this tired and shrinking world!!! This is something that helps us bear with our present world.

This . ^^^^
Hammer; meet nail .

[sirek]

I can go along with the idea:
“Collecting is an instinctual behaviour and is genetically fixed.”

You can enumerate several reasons why someone collected:

-it gives respect and appreciation
-pleasure, sensory pleasure and aesthetic pleasure
-the excitement of the search for specific things and the hunt for more
-a combination of passion and pleasure
-greed, some collectors simply want more and more
-trade or investment funds, just for financial gain
-distinguish you, profiling, collecting art shows good taste
-attention and respect, image building prestige, ambition,

Add something to your collection works as a kind of antidepressant:
your body will reward you with a brief shot happiness.

Collection is also rewarded by a social component:
that of community life. (As in this forum).
A collector with a nice keris can make no impression on his neighbour, but he can during a keris-meeting. (Or the neighbour must also be a keris collector )

But the question still remains: Why collect a keris ? And not an other form of artwork?
Why I bought as a child at a flea market among a thousand other things a keris? Or perhaps was it because the seller had a good story? And I also bought a story with emotion?

I have unfortunately no answer. I live in Europe and have no keris culture but I'm still interested in the keris, appreciate the craftsmanship, respect the culture. Therefore I believe that it is a form of instinct.

[Rick]

I think many of us may accumulate other works of art or something else beside only the keris .

In the past I, like David, was a bottle digger .
That was almost more of a sport than a hobby .

Original marine art is another of my interests; ties in nicely with the whole draw of the keris for me as does my interest in Asian art .
When I enjoy these I can plug in to that peaceful place .

You could almost call it a form of self-medication .

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, it seems as if during the past week, nobody has had any further thoughts on the matter under discussion here.

Perhaps we have exhausted the subject.

I've read through all of the posts more than a few times, and the message that I am getting seems to come down to this:-

1) --- our appreciation of anything can never take place except against the background of previous experience

2) --- this previous experience creates a matrix that we use either consciously or sub-consciously to evaluate the subject of our appreciation

3) --- the way in which the item that we evaluate is appreciated has an effect upon our emotional state

4) --- the effect upon our emotional state is beneficial to our overall well-being.

If this is so, then it is certain that we can never evaluate, nor consider an object in a purely subjective fashion. We are, if you will, unavoidably locked into evaluation of the object against everything that has previously entered our experience. We may try to be subjective, but our subjectivity is inevitably expressed in an objective fashion.

In other words, we're all hooked on "the story".

As I think is clear from the postings to this thread, that "story" is a little bit different for each of us.

But what is the purpose of this arguably self delusionary process?

Maybe Rick has summed it up very precisely as "self medication".

Does anybody have any further thoughts on this matter?