Blade for ID

Matchlock · 10th July 2010, 10:44 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Another remarkable piece for your collection! You seem to be extraordinarily active !!!: cool:

As you know I'm not especially focussed on edged arms but on briefing my library I would say it is

a) not very common

b) of Hispanian/Portuguese rather than of Mid European provenance

c) to me it seems to show some old Italian pre-Cinquedean influence and therefore might be dated to either the 1st half to the 16th or the 19th century when the Historismus period reenlivened all the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance shapes.

I like it a lot, anyways!

Best, mi amigo,
Michl

broadaxe · 11th July 2010, 11:24 PM

This shape tell me of two different origins:
1. Throwing knife indeed, the rather large size and distal taper suggest it is an item made to an expert, possibly a circus thrower. The small hilt area is typical, the grips were usualy of thick leather or fiber, riveted through (check for example the knives made by world famous thrower/knifemaker Harry McEvoy http://www.robertg.com/knifethrowing.htm).
2. Puntilla, Spanish bullfighting dagger, it resembles a throwing knife http://www.loveleaf.net/ts/652.html

Dmitry · 12th July 2010, 06:21 AM

Could also be a spear/pike head..?

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2010, 05:26 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Broadaxe in his thoughts on this. I am under the impression that spears and polearms typically were socketed with support langets, though I know in African weapons the tangs went into the hafts on axes etc. To me the holes in the tang were for rivets through the grip.

fernando · 12th July 2010, 09:43 PM

Thank you all Gentleman, for your input.
I guess i am now reconsidering Gene's first hint.
Indeed if no evidence shows up to prove otherwise, it is quite plausible that this is a handmade throwing knife blade assuming, as suggested by Broadaxe, that its large dimensions were meant for public show, such as in a circus.
This is quite a different approach as it would explain the difference between those elegant stylized factory made blades and this rather sturdy and irregular example
Fernando

Dmitry · 13th July 2010, 06:18 AM

With the center of gravity being closer to the tang than to the point of the blade, I have doubts about this being a throwing knife. It looks more like a spear/spontoon head. Judging from the surviving examples, majority were of socket design, but there are also period pieces with a tang which would have been inset into the wooden pole, with or without the rivets.
For argument's sake, the easiest way to verify or disprove this would be to tie a piece of wood to the tang to serve as an imaginary handle, and throw this thing 10 times into a piece of cardboard or what not, to see which end of it hits first.

Atlantia · 13th July 2010, 08:05 AM

Knife throwing (for show purposes) has a long history. Could it be a vintage or even antique Circus/Sideshow item?
Obviously these arent the same, but it shows that there are old 'better' quality throwing knives. If you had one of these without the handle it might well look like a spear head or something.

10th July 2010, 10:44 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Another remarkable piece for your collection! You seem to be extraordinarily active !!!: cool: As you know I'm not especially focussed on edged arms but on briefing my library I would say it is a) not very common b) of Hispanian/Portuguese rather than of Mid European provenance c) to me it seems to show some old Italian pre-Cinquedean influence and therefore might be dated to either the 1st half to the 16th or the 19th century when the Historismus period reenlivened all the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance shapes. I like it a lot, anyways! Best, mi amigo, Michl Last edited by Matchlock; 10th July 2010 at 10:55 PM.

13th July 2010, 06:18 AM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	With the center of gravity being closer to the tang than to the point of the blade, I have doubts about this being a throwing knife. It looks more like a spear/spontoon head. Judging from the surviving examples, majority were of socket design, but there are also period pieces with a tang which would have been inset into the wooden pole, with or without the rivets. For argument's sake, the easiest way to verify or disprove this would be to tie a piece of wood to the tang to serve as an imaginary handle, and throw this thing 10 times into a piece of cardboard or what not, to see which end of it hits first. Attached Images Last edited by Dmitry; 13th July 2010 at 06:47 AM.

11th July 2010, 11:24 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	This shape tell me of two different origins: 1. Throwing knife indeed, the rather large size and distal taper suggest it is an item made to an expert, possibly a circus thrower. The small hilt area is typical, the grips were usualy of thick leather or fiber, riveted through (check for example the knives made by world famous thrower/knifemaker Harry McEvoy http://www.robertg.com/knifethrowing.htm). 2. Puntilla, Spanish bullfighting dagger, it resembles a throwing knife http://www.loveleaf.net/ts/652.html

12th July 2010, 06:21 AM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Could also be a spear/pike head..?

12th July 2010, 05:26 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	I'm inclined to agree with Broadaxe in his thoughts on this. I am under the impression that spears and polearms typically were socketed with support langets, though I know in African weapons the tangs went into the hafts on axes etc. To me the holes in the tang were for rivets through the grip.

12th July 2010, 09:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you all Gentleman, for your input. I guess i am now reconsidering Gene's first hint. Indeed if no evidence shows up to prove otherwise, it is quite plausible that this is a handmade throwing knife blade assuming, as suggested by Broadaxe, that its large dimensions were meant for public show, such as in a circus. This is quite a different approach as it would explain the difference between those elegant stylized factory made blades and this rather sturdy and irregular example Fernando

13th July 2010, 08:05 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Knife throwing (for show purposes) has a long history. Could it be a vintage or even antique Circus/Sideshow item? Obviously these arent the same, but it shows that there are old 'better' quality throwing knives. If you had one of these without the handle it might well look like a spear head or something.