My Haladie

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2010, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Yes I also say Sudanese but I have never seen one with a brass hilt? Funny I have never seen a photo of any Sudanese warrior carrying one?

It is interesting that there were Mahdist kaskaras which sometimes had brass rather than iron crossguards. I was once told that this quite possibly could have had something to do with the superstitions that existed in Saharan regions and probably extended into Sudan concerning iron. While iron had connections with death, the converse was true of brass. It would be interesting to look further into that perspective....as to the use of the haladie, I am under the impression they were status type weapons to ranking tribal figures and the hilts were as noted, often horn or even ivory.
They may have been a symbol of rank, and used in the manner of the alem during battle, more research required

sailorjohn · 6th July 2010, 06:12 PM

Several members seem to think it is Sudanese. One suggested that the brass hilt had some significance. If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

Lew · 6th July 2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorjohn

If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

John

We absolutely do not quote prices on this forum. Please read the rules.

Lew

8. APPRAISALS

Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM.

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorjohn

Several members seem to think it is Sudanese. One suggested that the brass hilt had some significance. If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

It is I, the phantom of the invisible post who mentioned that brass might have significance. There is a secret method of scrolling upward on the threads to reveal what the people have said before. The reason that the mystical oracle have said it is Sudanese, is because it is, and these notations are also stated in previous posts. The system works much like other forums, and the same kinds of rules on appraisals apply...neat huh!!?

Tim Simmons · 6th July 2010, 09:24 PM

It appears to have all the signs collectors might consider as Mahdist Sudan. I am little unsure.

I really do not want to be a party pooper but this does look somewhat latter.

That is also assuming Sudan as in Omderman. I just have the feeling that to much is missing even for peasants at the time of conflict.

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2010, 10:49 PM

Ahah! the spectre of doubt has been detected in the decree of Sudanese origin for this weapon, heavily etched in thuluth script as many Sudanese weapons, especially kaskara, are.

I have seen similar script on the 'Sword of Byajidda' of Nigeria, but as discussed in Bivar (op.cit.1964) this seems one of a number of weapons which are believed to originate in the Nilotic Sudan. It is noted that the elongated 'naskhi' script evolved into the 'thuluth' style of Mamluk calligraphy in of course Egypt. The Mamluk presence in Egypt until early 19th century movements into the Sudan may account for the presence of this type of script which became well known with the Mahdist Revolts 1883-1898, and perhaps even earlier as the movement developed in the 1870s.

Obviously the Mamluk heritage is well known in Syria, and Stone calls the 'haladie' the Syrian knife, and as Mamluks were of course present in Egypt under Ottoman rule, but it seems predominantly that their presence in the Sudan set the course for this broad stroke Islamic script.

Omdurman was of course the Mahdist capital of the Sudan.

Tim Simmons · 10th July 2010, 07:07 PM

Undoubtedly there are Mahdist items with similar etched script. However I do not think it is unreasonable to question the orign of much weaponary called Sudan as in Omdurman. I suspect that there were centres of Huasa and Fulani production in Emirates and city states like Daura, Kano, Bornu and Sokoto. Far form Omdurman and indeed the nile. It is possible that items may predate Omdurman by many dacades, expressing earlier jihad.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2010, 07:40 AM

One of my first kaskaras was obtained in about 1975, and the blade was completely covered in acid etched 'thuluth' script. This began a fasciation with the weapons of the Sudan which for me continues to this day. In those years I discovered that along with kaskara blades, there were many forms of arms decorated with this broad calligraphy, and all were attributed to the Mahdist Sudan.

In the reference from which pages are illustrated (A.D.H.Bivar, "Nigerian Panoply" 1964) the author discusses the sword illustrated in the previous post, the "Sword of Bayajidda', and notes the perplexing inscriptions on the blade. He notes that it is "...of a group of weapons which seem to originate in the Nilotic Sudan. It does not seem possible to locate the workshop more precisely, but all are likely to predate the rise of Khartoum and Omdurman in the 19th century".
Bivar also notes that of this group of weapons that at least two are documented as being from the Sudan, one from Khartoum found among 'Dervish' weapons after the campaigns, and that the script in the inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons compares identically to that on the Sword of Bayajidda.

The use of the 'thuluth' type calligraphy by the Mamluks is well known, and that it was imitated by workmen on weapons in the Sudan, and reflected certain errors with a degree of consistancy. It is proposed that these were the result of that imitation of the styles copied from Mamluk examples, and became popularly added to weapons in Sudanese regions earlier in the 19th century.

Returning to the 'thuluth' calligraphy on the kaskara, in Briggs, the example of kaskara he illustrates and captions as 'Hausa' the thuluth calligraphy covers the blade. It should be noted that while Hausa tribes (also often armourers) were from Nigeria, their habitats extended also as far as Chad and the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan (to differentiate from Nigeria and regions often termed the Western Sudan).

In the time I have studied Sudanese and African weapons, the only thuluth covered examples have all been attributed to the Sudan, and though Mahdist period was presumed, naturally as shown, they could well have predated it.
The only other thuluth covered example I have seen from elsewhere is the Sword of Bayidda previously illustrated, and as noted, it is presumed to have originated in the Nilotic Sudan.
I have seen many examples of haladie, typically with horn or ivory grips, and virually every example has had the blades covered in thuluth, and all were from the Sudan. I have seen many examples of thuluth covered kaskara and dagger blades covered in thuluth, all from the Sudan.
I have actually never seen a haladie from any other region in Africa except the Sudan, though I would not be surprised to see examples from Mamluk Egypt.

The trade routes moving westward may very well have taken blades and weapons through Chad and into Nigeria from the Sudan, but it is my understanding that the scripts used there would have been different, probably of Maghribi or other style. It has always been curious to me that the use of the kaskara never really reached westward into Nigeria and West Africa, and there its broadsword cousin, the takouba, reigned. The Fulani of course used the takouba, along with the Tuareg, and as far as I know, these blades were never inscribed in this manner.

As I have noted, this has been a keen area of interest for me for many years, and Im glad to have the opportunity to discuss my perception on these fascinating weapons. I agree very much, it is not at all unreasonable to question attributing weapons to a particular region, and these are the factors considered in my thoughts on them. I would appreciate those of others as well, and always look forward to new perspective.

6th July 2010, 06:12 PM	#2
sailorjohn Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2	followup question Several members seem to think it is Sudanese. One suggested that the brass hilt had some significance. If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

6th July 2010, 09:24 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	It appears to have all the signs collectors might consider as Mahdist Sudan. I am little unsure. I really do not want to be a party pooper but this does look somewhat latter. That is also assuming Sudan as in Omderman. I just have the feeling that to much is missing even for peasants at the time of conflict. Attached Images

6th July 2010, 10:49 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Ahah! the spectre of doubt has been detected in the decree of Sudanese origin for this weapon, heavily etched in thuluth script as many Sudanese weapons, especially kaskara, are. I have seen similar script on the 'Sword of Byajidda' of Nigeria, but as discussed in Bivar (op.cit.1964) this seems one of a number of weapons which are believed to originate in the Nilotic Sudan. It is noted that the elongated 'naskhi' script evolved into the 'thuluth' style of Mamluk calligraphy in of course Egypt. The Mamluk presence in Egypt until early 19th century movements into the Sudan may account for the presence of this type of script which became well known with the Mahdist Revolts 1883-1898, and perhaps even earlier as the movement developed in the 1870s. Obviously the Mamluk heritage is well known in Syria, and Stone calls the 'haladie' the Syrian knife, and as Mamluks were of course present in Egypt under Ottoman rule, but it seems predominantly that their presence in the Sudan set the course for this broad stroke Islamic script. Omdurman was of course the Mahdist capital of the Sudan. Attached Images

10th July 2010, 07:07 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Undoubtedly there are Mahdist items with similar etched script. However I do not think it is unreasonable to question the orign of much weaponary called Sudan as in Omdurman. I suspect that there were centres of Huasa and Fulani production in Emirates and city states like Daura, Kano, Bornu and Sokoto. Far form Omdurman and indeed the nile. It is possible that items may predate Omdurman by many dacades, expressing earlier jihad. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th July 2010 at 07:17 PM.

11th July 2010, 07:40 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	One of my first kaskaras was obtained in about 1975, and the blade was completely covered in acid etched 'thuluth' script. This began a fasciation with the weapons of the Sudan which for me continues to this day. In those years I discovered that along with kaskara blades, there were many forms of arms decorated with this broad calligraphy, and all were attributed to the Mahdist Sudan. In the reference from which pages are illustrated (A.D.H.Bivar, "Nigerian Panoply" 1964) the author discusses the sword illustrated in the previous post, the "Sword of Bayajidda', and notes the perplexing inscriptions on the blade. He notes that it is "...of a group of weapons which seem to originate in the Nilotic Sudan. It does not seem possible to locate the workshop more precisely, but all are likely to predate the rise of Khartoum and Omdurman in the 19th century". Bivar also notes that of this group of weapons that at least two are documented as being from the Sudan, one from Khartoum found among 'Dervish' weapons after the campaigns, and that the script in the inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons compares identically to that on the Sword of Bayajidda. The use of the 'thuluth' type calligraphy by the Mamluks is well known, and that it was imitated by workmen on weapons in the Sudan, and reflected certain errors with a degree of consistancy. It is proposed that these were the result of that imitation of the styles copied from Mamluk examples, and became popularly added to weapons in Sudanese regions earlier in the 19th century. Returning to the 'thuluth' calligraphy on the kaskara, in Briggs, the example of kaskara he illustrates and captions as 'Hausa' the thuluth calligraphy covers the blade. It should be noted that while Hausa tribes (also often armourers) were from Nigeria, their habitats extended also as far as Chad and the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan (to differentiate from Nigeria and regions often termed the Western Sudan). In the time I have studied Sudanese and African weapons, the only thuluth covered examples have all been attributed to the Sudan, and though Mahdist period was presumed, naturally as shown, they could well have predated it. The only other thuluth covered example I have seen from elsewhere is the Sword of Bayidda previously illustrated, and as noted, it is presumed to have originated in the Nilotic Sudan. I have seen many examples of haladie, typically with horn or ivory grips, and virually every example has had the blades covered in thuluth, and all were from the Sudan. I have seen many examples of thuluth covered kaskara and dagger blades covered in thuluth, all from the Sudan. I have actually never seen a haladie from any other region in Africa except the Sudan, though I would not be surprised to see examples from Mamluk Egypt. The trade routes moving westward may very well have taken blades and weapons through Chad and into Nigeria from the Sudan, but it is my understanding that the scripts used there would have been different, probably of Maghribi or other style. It has always been curious to me that the use of the kaskara never really reached westward into Nigeria and West Africa, and there its broadsword cousin, the takouba, reigned. The Fulani of course used the takouba, along with the Tuareg, and as far as I know, these blades were never inscribed in this manner. As I have noted, this has been a keen area of interest for me for many years, and Im glad to have the opportunity to discuss my perception on these fascinating weapons. I agree very much, it is not at all unreasonable to question attributing weapons to a particular region, and these are the factors considered in my thoughts on them. I would appreciate those of others as well, and always look forward to new perspective.