Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris

Bill M · 25th June 2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Please don't use the word malice. Death and War are mighty fine Gods. They are not about malice.

The Curator and Executive Director like the title, but it is my decision. What would you suggest as a better overall title. I like "Elegance" but am very open.

BTW I am certainly fine with the Mods moving this thread to the Keris Forum, but this is really about much more than the kris. They are also interested in the people (PI and Java), other weapons, daily life, religion and talismans.

Most of this I see centered in a time period from about 1400-1500 until 1925-50, though I do like the picture of the keris guy on the scooter.

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 02:28 PM

"Ellegance of Death?"

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 02:31 PM

A bit of a pain for you, perhaps, but IMHO it should be a two-forum thread, and the keris forum would hook you up major detailed info, explanatory pictures, etc. It's not just for keris, but other tosan aji, et.

Rick · 25th June 2010, 03:51 PM

Hi Bill,

I'd suggest that what we are talking about here is a diaspora of the keris from its place of origin (Java) through travel and trade to the Philippines .

(see the Thai Kreis thread in the Warung)

It seems pretty likely the keris came to the Philippines with the Malays .

I'd suggest that questions about the keris be asked in the Warung and queries about the Moro kris be posted here (ethno) along with any conclusions drawn from the results of the information from both forums .

Some questions to explore might be the importance of pamor patterns in Moro krisses, and an exploration of the esoteric importance of the Moro version vs the Javanese or Malay .

Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side .
The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender .

Sadly much of this knowledge may have died with the men who were defending their faith and their lands in the 19th and early 20th centuries .

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:18 AM

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:20 AM

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

Rick · 26th June 2010, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

We use this different spelling to make it clear which species of weapon form we are discussing, Tom .

David · 27th June 2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

Actually Tom, i am not convinced that this pronounciation is exactly correct.

kahnjar1 · 26th June 2010, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

My two cents worth regarding origins.....Malaysia may not be the origin but the Kris figures prominantly on their National Coat of Arms, and also is used as a prominent part of the logo of Tourism Melaka, so one could assume that the Malays have some claim??

Rick · 26th June 2010, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

Please .
Prove otherwise .

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Please .
Prove otherwise .

I don't have any need to prove otherwise; I merely point out it is a far from settled matter. A simple search of these forums will show that to anyone. So you please; don't present your favored position as a settled matter.

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side .
The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender . .

What do you mean "were"?

Rick · 26th June 2010, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

What do you mean "were"?

Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc. .
Numerous other Cottas that were wiped out to the man woman and child ?
Warrior class Men, their Wives and Children ?
The people who carried these traditions ?

Mostly gone .

We digress ...

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc. .
Numerous other Cottas that were wiped out to the man woman and child ?
Warrior class Men, their Wives and Children ?
The people who carried these traditions ?

Mostly gone .

We digress ...

You digress; I merely reply. Their descendants ain't started laying down yet, is my point.

25th June 2010, 03:51 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Bill, I'd suggest that what we are talking about here is a diaspora of the keris from its place of origin (Java) through travel and trade to the Philippines . (see the Thai Kreis thread in the Warung) It seems pretty likely the keris came to the Philippines with the Malays . I'd suggest that questions about the keris be asked in the Warung and queries about the Moro kris be posted here (ethno) along with any conclusions drawn from the results of the information from both forums . Some questions to explore might be the importance of pamor patterns in Moro krisses, and an exploration of the esoteric importance of the Moro version vs the Javanese or Malay . Here, I think, you may run into trouble with info from the Philippine side . The Moro people were not much interested in the act of surrender . Sadly much of this knowledge may have died with the men who were defending their faith and their lands in the 19th and early 20th centuries . Last edited by Rick; 26th June 2010 at 04:02 AM.

25th June 2010, 02:28 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	"Ellegance of Death?"

25th June 2010, 02:31 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	A bit of a pain for you, perhaps, but IMHO it should be a two-forum thread, and the keris forum would hook you up major detailed info, explanatory pictures, etc. It's not just for keris, but other tosan aji, et.

26th June 2010, 12:18 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	place of alleged origin (Java) This is a much-debated point, some even pointing to India for the origin of the kris.

26th June 2010, 12:20 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".