Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:42 PM

There is a penninsular Malay form of kris sundang (Moros are a Malay group; most Malays, whether in the state of Malaysia, Philipines, Indonesia, etc. are moslems, or to say in Spainish "Moros" ie Mooroccans

)
To the South there is a long kris called kris panjang (long kris; kris sundang may translate "warsword kris") which is often, probably falsely or exaggeratedly, associated with execution of Death sentences.
One rare type of Moro kris has a single edged often swell-tipped kampilanlike blade.
Where is Justin?

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:47 PM

Most kris have a round- or oval-section tang, sometimes twisted. Such tang is generally viewed as speciallized for thrusting. In this regard, and well as the flared base so good for parries kris resembles the European "smallsword"
Kris sundang has a more robust (usually) rectangular-section tang, like an oceanic SE Asian cutting sword. Occasionally more modern ones (mid 20th+) have a nail-like tang a-la dha or tulwar. This seems a new and foreign influence.
Kris tangs are wedge-shaped.
Kris are meant to be removeable from their handles and other "dress" like Japanese swords are (The myth of Japanese isolation and uniqueness is highly overblown)

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:52 PM

Moro swords (including bangkungs sometimes for instance) are sometimes bound to their handles by metal or fiber bindings that cross hooks or holes in the blade. These bindings are called asang or baca, and have long tangs themselves that are bound between the handle surface and its wrapping.
On kris sundang these are said to be to secure the ganga to the blade rather than the blade to the hilt. This does not seem correct to me though. Why the tangs? What about when they're on bangkungs? (bangkungs have no seperate ganga) other kris do not AFAIK have bacas/asangs. It is not a kris feature IMHO, but a Mindinao feature.

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:54 PM

It is traditional with collectors in USA to speak as if the pommel on kris sundang were seperate from (and more interesting than) the handle. Usually if not always they are actually one piece of wood (etc.).

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:56 PM

In addition to the iron ganga many kris (non-sundang) have a second, nonferous, round, drawn-on bolster that sits around the tang above the blade, below the handle (swords are spoken of in the "West" traditionally as if being worn; the point is the bottom; the pommel is the top) This ring is often jewelled and AFAIK its purpose is jewelry.

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:58 PM

kris may be held by pinching the blade, and many have grooves for the fingers to engage. The kris becomes your finger, so to speak.

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 02:00 PM

Please don't use the word malice. Death and War are mighty fine Gods. They are not about malice.

Bill M · 25th June 2010, 02:02 PM

Great response and good info, Tom. Let's "dumb it down" a bit for the average person. Right now they are not asking, for example, the difference in a Sulu Kris and one from Mindanao. But there are basic questions.....

Granted, a kris has a asymmetrical ganja. I have also heard it is a "cork in the bottle" to hold the Djinn/Spirit in the blade.

But, why does it look like that? Why Asymmetrical? Someone went to a LOT of work to make the ganja look like that. Why? What is the ritual where the Djinn is "invited" into the blade? How is the kris venerated? Ceremonies? Specifics? I know a little about the yearly ceremonies for Javanese (during Ramadan, would like some pictures BTW), but what about the PI Kris?

I know the answers to some of these, but I certainly have gaps (often LARGE gaps).

How did a person get qualified to be a kris holder?

When did a person decide to carry a kampilan instead of a kris? A Barong? Were barongs more regional, like Sulu, or were they carried (concealed) by a person who wanted to get in close to an enemy?

Were panabas weapons of choice for any group, or just an agricultural device that graduated to a "mop up" weapon after a battle to kill the wounded without accidentally hitting the ground with a better blade? And enforce Sharia law?

I am having a great time with this! Learning a flow, a big picture! Thanks again!

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 02:09 PM

I'm a big-picture, flowing, sword-loving guy, but the Moro students and the "keris" crowd will probably, hopefully fill in a lot of details......

25th June 2010, 01:47 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Most kris have a round- or oval-section tang, sometimes twisted. Such tang is generally viewed as speciallized for thrusting. In this regard, and well as the flared base so good for parries kris resembles the European "smallsword" Kris sundang has a more robust (usually) rectangular-section tang, like an oceanic SE Asian cutting sword. Occasionally more modern ones (mid 20th+) have a nail-like tang a-la dha or tulwar. This seems a new and foreign influence. Kris tangs are wedge-shaped. Kris are meant to be removeable from their handles and other "dress" like Japanese swords are (The myth of Japanese isolation and uniqueness is highly overblown) Last edited by tom hyle; 25th June 2010 at 02:06 PM.

25th June 2010, 01:52 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Moro swords (including bangkungs sometimes for instance) are sometimes bound to their handles by metal or fiber bindings that cross hooks or holes in the blade. These bindings are called asang or baca, and have long tangs themselves that are bound between the handle surface and its wrapping. On kris sundang these are said to be to secure the ganga to the blade rather than the blade to the hilt. This does not seem correct to me though. Why the tangs? What about when they're on bangkungs? (bangkungs have no seperate ganga) other kris do not AFAIK have bacas/asangs. It is not a kris feature IMHO, but a Mindinao feature. Last edited by tom hyle; 26th June 2010 at 05:06 AM.

25th June 2010, 01:42 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There is a penninsular Malay form of kris sundang (Moros are a Malay group; most Malays, whether in the state of Malaysia, Philipines, Indonesia, etc. are moslems, or to say in Spainish "Moros" ie Mooroccans ) To the South there is a long kris called kris panjang (long kris; kris sundang may translate "warsword kris") which is often, probably falsely or exaggeratedly, associated with execution of Death sentences. One rare type of Moro kris has a single edged often swell-tipped kampilanlike blade. Where is Justin?

25th June 2010, 01:54 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It is traditional with collectors in USA to speak as if the pommel on kris sundang were seperate from (and more interesting than) the handle. Usually if not always they are actually one piece of wood (etc.).

25th June 2010, 01:56 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In addition to the iron ganga many kris (non-sundang) have a second, nonferous, round, drawn-on bolster that sits around the tang above the blade, below the handle (swords are spoken of in the "West" traditionally as if being worn; the point is the bottom; the pommel is the top) This ring is often jewelled and AFAIK its purpose is jewelry.

25th June 2010, 01:58 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	kris may be held by pinching the blade, and many have grooves for the fingers to engage. The kris becomes your finger, so to speak.

25th June 2010, 02:00 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Please don't use the word malice. Death and War are mighty fine Gods. They are not about malice.

25th June 2010, 02:02 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Great response and good info, Tom. Let's "dumb it down" a bit for the average person. Right now they are not asking, for example, the difference in a Sulu Kris and one from Mindanao. But there are basic questions..... Granted, a kris has a asymmetrical ganja. I have also heard it is a "cork in the bottle" to hold the Djinn/Spirit in the blade. But, why does it look like that? Why Asymmetrical? Someone went to a LOT of work to make the ganja look like that. Why? What is the ritual where the Djinn is "invited" into the blade? How is the kris venerated? Ceremonies? Specifics? I know a little about the yearly ceremonies for Javanese (during Ramadan, would like some pictures BTW), but what about the PI Kris? I know the answers to some of these, but I certainly have gaps (often LARGE gaps). How did a person get qualified to be a kris holder? When did a person decide to carry a kampilan instead of a kris? A Barong? Were barongs more regional, like Sulu, or were they carried (concealed) by a person who wanted to get in close to an enemy? Were panabas weapons of choice for any group, or just an agricultural device that graduated to a "mop up" weapon after a battle to kill the wounded without accidentally hitting the ground with a better blade? And enforce Sharia law? I am having a great time with this! Learning a flow, a big picture! Thanks again!

25th June 2010, 02:09 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm a big-picture, flowing, sword-loving guy, but the Moro students and the "keris" crowd will probably, hopefully fill in a lot of details......