A Unique Curved Patissa

dralin23 · 6th June 2010, 01:00 PM

hi charles,
an very intresting and beautifull sword.
i found an similar one at an older auction by hermann historica . it is the 57. auction from the 23 apr. 2009 lot nr 2952. there was also such an patissa sword offered. the fullers are there also decorated with koftgari work and i think at the pictures i see also an very light curvature in the fullers from these sword.
best wishes send you stefan
Hermann Historica

Hermann Historica

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 03:29 AM

interesting piece..might be kirach..not pattisa..might be bidri work

CharlesS · 9th June 2010, 02:03 PM

Jim,

Why do you say "kirach" here? I don't see it, at least not one along traditional lines.

Just curious.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Jim,

Why do you say "kirach" here? I don't see it, at least not one along traditional lines.

Just curious.

Quid pro quo, I was wondering what made you think it was a patissa

In the nebulous world of sword nomenclature and terminology, especially in India, the 'pattisa' ranks in the top ten mysterious contenders.

While Rawson completely overlooks the term, and puts all of these with 'khandas', Pant clarifies (?) by noting these are from South India and double edge, with the flared 'spatulate' tip. Typically these are in the Hindu baskethilt type mounts with the long seatings central on the blade nearly to mid point. The broadsword 'pattisa' is extremely flexible blade, and with the spatulate tip, is probably in some degree associated with the sword techniques favored by Mahrattas, slashing cuts. This is much the same as seen in Omani swordplay, with the kattara broadswords.
Many of these are from Malabar, the western coastal Indian regions with considerable Arab colonization and trade.

This example seems to be 19th century, and with the silverwork of the Bidri type (from Kerala regions originally but dispersed into Rajasthan, this may be Deccani).

The blade tip on this single edged sword, in which the curve is ever so slight, has what may best be described as a 'classical' type point, reflecting varied much earlier swords that are single edged, some of them even with a diamond 'lozenge' type point (Ajanta). Some of the spear tip angular points are termed 'shilagra' in Sanskrit.
The term 'kirach' is typically used for the straight blade tulwar, whose single edged blade is noted often as 'almost' straight.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss, nice sword!!!

CharlesS · 9th June 2010, 07:35 PM

Jim,

I am defining the sword exclusivley by its "spatula" tip, but when you include the other identifying factors I do think there can be a "type" overlap.

I generally think of a kirach as having a long straight(or almost straight) edge, with a down turned tip (like some Indonesian parang and klewang types), with the spine being unsharpened or at least having no more than a false edge.

If ever a sword was a candidate for identification overlap, I think this one is.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Jim,

I am defining the sword exclusivley by its "spatula" tip, but when you include the other identifying factors I do think there can be a "type" overlap.

I generally think of a kirach as having a long straight(or almost straight) edge, with a down turned tip (like some Indonesian parang and klewang types), with the spine being unsharpened or at least having no more than a false edge.

If ever a sword was a candidate for identification overlap, I think this one is.

Good point Charles (no pun intended

! As we know, India is a hotbed of weapons anomalies, the terminology notwithstanding. I think in most cases with these kinds of weapons we have to rely on comparitive description rather than classification by term. I dont think there are any reliable definitions for kirach or pattisa specifically, and we could probably go on forever on the maddening dilemma on weapons terminology from countless situations.

Rick · 9th June 2010, 09:45 PM

Now you guys are making me wonder what that downward curved, fully sharpened long back edged basket hilted sword that I have with the thickened point is !?

I had to go back and look at the thread .

That is some variation in form between the two.

9th June 2010, 03:29 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	interesting piece..might be kirach..not pattisa..might be bidri work

9th June 2010, 02:03 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Jim, Why do you say "kirach" here? I don't see it, at least not one along traditional lines. Just curious.

9th June 2010, 07:35 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Jim, I am defining the sword exclusivley by its "spatula" tip, but when you include the other identifying factors I do think there can be a "type" overlap. I generally think of a kirach as having a long straight(or almost straight) edge, with a down turned tip (like some Indonesian parang and klewang types), with the spine being unsharpened or at least having no more than a false edge. If ever a sword was a candidate for identification overlap, I think this one is.

9th June 2010, 09:45 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Now you guys are making me wonder what that downward curved, fully sharpened long back edged basket hilted sword that I have with the thickened point is !? I had to go back and look at the thread . That is some variation in form between the two.