Allure of the Core

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 02:05 PM

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

mross · 27th May 2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

Alan,
You are spot on, for the reason for Pattern Welding. The history of it is nicely delt with in Manfred Sachse's book referenced in the original post. It is still costly which was what I was getting at. The books I have read stated the Philippino showed their wealth/status with the handle, not the blade. Which is a reason you see elaborate handles with mediocre blades. So why the switch from handle to blade?

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 11:41 PM

I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris.

However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris.

Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator?

Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris?

Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years.

Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time.

I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule.

This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.

Battara · 28th May 2010, 12:07 AM

2 things about status kris:

a) datus had several kris, which meant that the "status" kris were not used as much for battle but for statement of wealth and status wear

b) the twistcore kris declined over time perhaps in part because of the increased use of other weapons (like modern firearms) and thus not as needed, and perhaps the technique even forgotten in the beginning of the 20th century.

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2010, 12:43 AM

Yes Battara, that sounds reasonable.

In other places where elaborate manipulated patterns in blade material emerged, those pattern welded blades tended to decrease in number, or to disappear, when better quality material became readily available for weapons.

This was not the case in some areas of Indonesia, where the patterns had a social and talismanic application, rather than a weapon application.

Rick · 28th May 2010, 01:35 AM

Which brings us to a crux (IMO) .

What are we to make of this ?
This Kris is how old ?

(It has been polished by Philip)

What class ?

Dressed as a combat blade, IMO .

Fancy, or functional ?

Is this pamor as known in the Indonesian/Malay sense ??

Battara · 28th May 2010, 03:08 AM

I agree that this particular kris is probably earlier and rehilted at a later date by I would think some one or a family who did not have the same means as earlier in their history. Why rehilt?

1. Damage to the original hilt?

2. Need for the family later to sell off the expensive materials and replace with lesser?

In most cases the family would want to keep the blade since it has a spirit of it's own - the dress is of somewhat lesser value spiritually (though not to the same extent as the Indonesians).

These are my thoughts on this piece.

28th May 2010, 01:35 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Which brings us to a crux (IMO) . What are we to make of this ? This Kris is how old ? (It has been polished by Philip) What class ? Dressed as a combat blade, IMO . Fancy, or functional ? Is this pamor as known in the Indonesian/Malay sense ?? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 28th May 2010 at 01:48 AM.

27th May 2010, 02:05 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia. In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade. A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed. In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity. In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

27th May 2010, 11:41 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris. However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris. Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator? Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris? Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years. Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time. I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule. This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.

28th May 2010, 12:07 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	2 things about status kris: a) datus had several kris, which meant that the "status" kris were not used as much for battle but for statement of wealth and status wear b) the twistcore kris declined over time perhaps in part because of the increased use of other weapons (like modern firearms) and thus not as needed, and perhaps the technique even forgotten in the beginning of the 20th century.

28th May 2010, 12:43 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes Battara, that sounds reasonable. In other places where elaborate manipulated patterns in blade material emerged, those pattern welded blades tended to decrease in number, or to disappear, when better quality material became readily available for weapons. This was not the case in some areas of Indonesia, where the patterns had a social and talismanic application, rather than a weapon application.

28th May 2010, 03:08 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I agree that this particular kris is probably earlier and rehilted at a later date by I would think some one or a family who did not have the same means as earlier in their history. Why rehilt? 1. Damage to the original hilt? 2. Need for the family later to sell off the expensive materials and replace with lesser? In most cases the family would want to keep the blade since it has a spirit of it's own - the dress is of somewhat lesser value spiritually (though not to the same extent as the Indonesians). These are my thoughts on this piece.