Allure of the Core

Emanuel · 26th May 2010, 07:24 PM

Hello,

Some of my thoughts on this...

I don't think there is any additional setup needed to do twist core once a smith can do simple lamination. If he can do forge welding and produce laminated blades, then he possesses the tools for twist core. The only thing I can think of restricting the widespread use of twist core is the skill and time needed to do it successfully, without cold shuts and without wasting material.

There is also another economic and marketing consideration. Twist core can be marketed as a luxury item, and as such bring a higher return. If twist core blades are produced in limited quantity, then they remain luxury items.

I wouldn't limit the twist core blade to a "status" piece. It could just have been a high quality fighting blade for whoever could afford it, without any social and cultural constraints associated with "status". The large and finely decorated hilts, however, were obviously intended to be shown and seen.

As to what is alluring about these blades, they're just beautiful and out of the ordinary. I think any pattern in metal is quite attractive and its revelation upon etching or polishing can seem magical.

For cultures of Islamic faith, the flowing water-like pattern of lamination/patterning and dendritic structures are especially important IIRC.

Emanuel

Rick · 26th May 2010, 09:58 PM

And I would bet that hilts started to increase in size as the 19th Century progressed .

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 03:05 PM

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

mross · 27th May 2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

Alan,
You are spot on, for the reason for Pattern Welding. The history of it is nicely delt with in Manfred Sachse's book referenced in the original post. It is still costly which was what I was getting at. The books I have read stated the Philippino showed their wealth/status with the handle, not the blade. Which is a reason you see elaborate handles with mediocre blades. So why the switch from handle to blade?

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2010, 12:41 AM

I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris.

However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris.

Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator?

Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris?

Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years.

Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time.

I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule.

This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.

Battara · 28th May 2010, 01:07 AM

2 things about status kris:

a) datus had several kris, which meant that the "status" kris were not used as much for battle but for statement of wealth and status wear

b) the twistcore kris declined over time perhaps in part because of the increased use of other weapons (like modern firearms) and thus not as needed, and perhaps the technique even forgotten in the beginning of the 20th century.

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2010, 01:43 AM

Yes Battara, that sounds reasonable.

In other places where elaborate manipulated patterns in blade material emerged, those pattern welded blades tended to decrease in number, or to disappear, when better quality material became readily available for weapons.

This was not the case in some areas of Indonesia, where the patterns had a social and talismanic application, rather than a weapon application.

26th May 2010, 09:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	A Wild Guess And I would bet that hilts started to increase in size as the 19th Century progressed .

26th May 2010, 07:24 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Some of my thoughts on this... I don't think there is any additional setup needed to do twist core once a smith can do simple lamination. If he can do forge welding and produce laminated blades, then he possesses the tools for twist core. The only thing I can think of restricting the widespread use of twist core is the skill and time needed to do it successfully, without cold shuts and without wasting material. There is also another economic and marketing consideration. Twist core can be marketed as a luxury item, and as such bring a higher return. If twist core blades are produced in limited quantity, then they remain luxury items. I wouldn't limit the twist core blade to a "status" piece. It could just have been a high quality fighting blade for whoever could afford it, without any social and cultural constraints associated with "status". The large and finely decorated hilts, however, were obviously intended to be shown and seen. As to what is alluring about these blades, they're just beautiful and out of the ordinary. I think any pattern in metal is quite attractive and its revelation upon etching or polishing can seem magical. For cultures of Islamic faith, the flowing water-like pattern of lamination/patterning and dendritic structures are especially important IIRC. Emanuel

27th May 2010, 03:05 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia. In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade. A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed. In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity. In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

28th May 2010, 12:41 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris. However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris. Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator? Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris? Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years. Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time. I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule. This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.

28th May 2010, 01:07 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	2 things about status kris: a) datus had several kris, which meant that the "status" kris were not used as much for battle but for statement of wealth and status wear b) the twistcore kris declined over time perhaps in part because of the increased use of other weapons (like modern firearms) and thus not as needed, and perhaps the technique even forgotten in the beginning of the 20th century.

28th May 2010, 01:43 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes Battara, that sounds reasonable. In other places where elaborate manipulated patterns in blade material emerged, those pattern welded blades tended to decrease in number, or to disappear, when better quality material became readily available for weapons. This was not the case in some areas of Indonesia, where the patterns had a social and talismanic application, rather than a weapon application.