Some more objects from the RDG - kaskara (?) and spears

Marc · 17th May 2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

With regard to the wire, I suppose that it might conceivably be fine leather, although it doesn't look, or feel, like it to my distinctly inexpert eye. If only I might send a sample.

In the pics it LOOKS like iron wire, but pictures can be so misleading... But, if metallic, it should be cold at thouch, although that may take a bit of experience to tell. Anyway, if it's iron, it's going to be magnetic, even if corroded. If copper or brass, it shouldn't be desintegrating without some degree of an annoying green residue lying around and staining things. And, in any event, if not metallic, it should... react... to a candle's flame that would... happen... to be lying near by...

RDGAC · 18th May 2010, 02:06 PM

Kaskara #2, similar in proportions to #1 but with a single fuller running for approximately 10in (25cm) from cross-guard to its termination, and an unusual change in the depth of the edge, for want of a better phrase, some 13in (32cm) from the blade's tip. Seemed to be sharper than the previous blade, and indeed the sharpest of all, albeit with several chips and nicks in the blade.

In moderate to good condition, at least compared to the others, with a minimum of damage to the blade and its grip intact. Little pitting and only small levels of rust, once again treated with oil and G0000 wire wool, have been found on this blade. There seem to be no markings, at least that I can make out. The grip appears to be of cowhide or something similar, and its stitching is happily intact. The two langets, however, are both bent, in the same direction, presumably indicative of poor care or possibly battle damage; perhaps in the case of the langet that has bent outwards, an enemy blade slipped down and forced it out? Overall the most complete of the four, scabbard notwithstanding.

Length overall: 39.5in (100cm),
Length blade (cross-guard to tip): 37.6in (88cm),
Width at widest point (ricasso): 1.6in (4.2cm),

Overall views:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2909/img0400de.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/828/img0408uj.jpg

Blade, tip to base, obverse (some images may require rotation):
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/392/img0402uk.jpg
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5691/img0403fy.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5562/img0404co.jpg

Cross-guard, grip and pommel, obverse and reverse respectively:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/64/img0405j.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7903/img0407e.jpg

(The stitching holding the cowhide - or whatever it is - together is visible in the first picture.)

View of distorted langets:
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2551/img0411l.jpg

Two views showing the alteration experienced by the edge in depth, ~13in short of the tip:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5701/img0412ol.jpg
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2069/img0413m.jpg

A fairly flexible blade, though by no means as bendy as the last I shall put up. On with the show, and our next example is what I believe to be a somewhat unusual specimen that has me a little intrigued.

RDGAC · 19th May 2010, 11:54 AM

Kaskara #3, which is by far the... er... shiniest of the lot, for some reason. My inspection has failed to locate any active corrosion on its surface, though very numerous areas of black, inactive rust, along with some pitting, can be seen. It's as if the blade has been galvanised, a process which, I understand, has been in use for some 150 years and might thus have been employed by European swordsmiths exporting their wares to the Sudan and nearby areas for use in kaskara manufacture. On the other hand, if galvanised, why has the blade seen such corrosion and pitting, visible on the attached photographs? I'm leaning to the hypothesis that this blade was treated after it entered the United Kingdom but have no doubt that the members here will have come across similar weapons before, and have an explanation more in line with Occam's Razor. As well as pitting and rust, the blade has the usual chips and nicks in its edge, and its tip has been flattened considerably, suggesting perhaps that it was dropped; given the lack of body armour on European (and especially British) troops at this time, I think it unlikely that the point met impenetrable plate.

This blade has proportions, unsurprisingly, broadly similar to those of our other kaskara, but is unique in having no fewer than five fullers, all of the same narrow type as on our first example, which run for (on average, accounting for minor variations in individual fuller length) 8.25in (21cm) from the base of the blade. At said base are a pair of large tabs, seemingly forge-welded or similar to the flats of the blade, and presumably intended to broaden it a little and allow the cross-guard and grip a firmer attachment to the base and tang, though that's probably an erroneous presumption. A curious aspect is the small piece of what looks like copper or perhaps gold (depending upon the light in which one views it), which can be found 10.25in (11cm) from the tip.

Moving downward, the cross-guard is loose and can be moved relatively easily, although it does not come off entirely. This I would ascribe to the partially absent wrapping of the grip, for about half of the leather strips which should bind it are missing. The grip's wood, however, appears sound, as does the remaining leather and its disc pommel. The nail passing through the grip remains in place and secure. Overall one of the more interesting kaskara we have, quite sharp and relatively flexible, if somewhat rough. For a weapon at least 126 years old, I don't think she's doing badly!

Length overall: 39.4in (100cm)
Length blade (from horizontal of cross-guard): 34in (86.4cm)
Length grip: 4.5in (11.5cm),
Width cross-guard horizontal: 5.5in (14cm)
Length of fullers (average): 8.25in (21cm) from tabs at base of blade.

Overall of sword, obverse:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2575/img0414y.jpg
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3254/img0415h.jpg

Overall, reverse:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2328/img0416sz.jpg

Grip and cross-guard, obverse
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1274/img0419c.jpg

Grip and cross-guard, reverse:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1834/img0417s.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4604/img0420h.jpg

(Note small tab in lower picture between lower vertical portion of cross-guard and grip - any ideas?)

Cross-guard and langets:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2351/img0423y.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3184/img0422fz.jpg

Cross-guard and tab, reverse:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7728/img0424n.jpg

Cross-guard and tab, obverse:
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1575/img0425n.jpg

Pommel:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8194/img0426tr.jpg

Grip, cross-guard, langets and upper portion of blade, reverse, perspective:
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3640/img0427g.jpg

Details of copper/gold on blade:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7266/img0453l.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3430/img0452bm.jpg
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3227/img0421r.jpg

katana · 19th May 2010, 12:35 PM

Hi RDGAC,
with regards the pitting on the blade that is devoid of active rust...IMHO the blade has probably been subjected to electrolytic rust removal or the use of a weak acid.

Kind Regards David

PS With regards galvanised blades ....I believe Mole patented a galvanised blade or the process of galvanising a blade, in 1860 ......"galvanized,that is to say, coated them with zinc, whereby the said machetes and cutlasses are preserved from oxidisation" . However I think this was mainly for Maritime swords ...which were often painted (black) to help preserve them in the 'sea air'.

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2010, 08:33 PM

Nicely done David! Thank you for the note on Mole and galvanizing, and it would be interesting to learn more on the use of this process in England in these times.

I have been rather determined to discover more on these kaskaras, and how they might have been captured at Tel el Kebir in 1882, as this conflict was between nationalist Egyptian forces rebelling against the Khedive, and the British forces protecting thier interests in Egypt and the Suez Canal.

The key problem, as previously noted, being that the Egyptian Army was essentially a modernized army, now equipped with Remington carbines and revolvers, and wearing military uniforms. That having been said, I think it is important to note that the rebel forces were not technically the forces of the Khedive, in the militarily outfitted sense, though it would be likely that a large part of them had this equipment.

It is known that the Khedives forces, by 1876, had been receiving these modern firearms ("Khedive Ismail's Army" , John P.Dunn, 2005, p.38). It is also worthy of note that these forces also included the regiments known as the Khedives 'Iron Men'. Certainly the Turko-Circassian aristocracy as well as the well established Mamluk traditions had firmly emplaced the use of medieval style armour, and these elite regiments were carrying forth those traditions.

The reason I bring this up is that in these times, apparantly the British industrial engine in Birmingham was supplying helmets of traditional style to these Khedival troops, as well as producing chain mail for them. While it is unclear about swords and blades that might have been produced along with these, it does seem quite possible that medieval type broadsword blades, well known in the kaskaras, could well have been produced in some number
as well.
The comments and observations on galvanizing were what triggered this thought, as well as the fact that these blades seem somewhat more 'industrial' and without the typical characteristics of many of these swords of the Mahdist trophy groups.

In trying to establish who then, in the Egyptian forces, might have been using kaskaras, we must consider that within the Khedives forces were also irregular troops of Bedouin in sizeable contingents, along with small squadrons of Shayqiyya. These units who functioned much as the Bedouin, in duties such as raiders, scouts, border guards etc. and thier home areas were actually in generally the same regions as that which encompassed the campaign at Tel el Kebir in 1882. Incorporated in these groups were elements of the Beni Amer tribe, actually a component of the large Beja group more familiar in Sudanese areas, but certainly present in these parts of Egypt and Northern Sudan.

Here is what is important, I have seen illustrations of the Beni Amer, mounted, wearing chain mail, and kaskaras! It would seem entirely possible, if not likely, that many of these tribesmen would have joined Ahmed Urabi in revolt, along with the profound ties to the Shayqiyya Brotherhood, and Bedouin.

Here may be where these clearly Sudanese broadswords may have found thier way into the hands of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards, just as has been included in RDG's description. It is also worthy of note that , "...the British admiration for an enemy intensified thier desire to collect war trophies".
(Maj. Gen. Sir Alexander Bruce Tulloch).

Also, noted by war correspondent G.W. Stevens after Omdurman in 1898, the respect the British had for these adversaries remained as he noted, "..our men were perfect, but the Dervishes were superb beyond perfection".

The instructions not to wantonly destroy the combatants at Tel el Kebir was certainly to try to defray as much damage as possible in this unfortunate situation, and certainly reflected much of this same perspective. It seems likely of course that many of these forces may have become part of the Khedives forces in the later campaigns.

While often times museum attributions and provenances can certainly become clouded over many years, but in this I very much commend RDG for his efforts to find support for that with these kaskaras. It is an example that should be followed by the staff and constituents of all museums, and I hope the discussion here will prove helpful in the further display of these historic swords.

All best regards,
Jim

RDGAC · 20th May 2010, 12:15 PM

Thank you both for the insights; I shall have to look in to our records (such as they are) to see where we got our caption information. Unfortunately, the records of the 4th DG are sparse (as indeed are all of our records); a fire at their barracks circa 1920 destroyed a great many records going back to the regiment's foundation in 1685, and over the years yet more records have been lost owing to neglect, mishandling, wartime damage (the 5th Dragoon Guards placed their records into safe storage for the Second World War, only for said safe storage facility to be bombed flat by the Luftwaffe - argh!) the sheer ignorance of the squaddies on the importance of such documents (with no offence at all meant; it's not their job to be archivists, it's their job to be good soldiers, and so long as they do that I can forgive them most anything, however frustrating it might be for us down the line), and the habit of QMs to regard these enormous boxes of paper as so much useless encumbrance. I'm told by my boss (an ex-soldier himself) that on many occasions quartermasters would simply detail some luckless corporal and a private (or trooper, in our case) to go through the records and destroy any that weren't absolutely vital - or indeed, just to burn the lot as long as they weren't in use. It makes one bang one's head on the wall nowadays, but one can't really blame them.

Regardless, however, we must try. I happen to feel it's my duty to do so, and it's good to see that people appreciate that. Makes one feel quite humbled, really. Aw, shucks!

In any event, on with the show. Our final kaskara is much like our second specimen; it's in good condition (for ours, anyway), with its blade largely free from active rust and cleaned up; with that removed a good coating of oil (I cannot recommend Young's "303" enough, since it comes in a spray can and provides a good, durable coating - but am I right?) and some treatment applied, however belatedly, to its leather bindings and pommel should see it through, though I still dislike the unsightly black blotches of inactive corrosion. Once again it has a single, broad fuller, and is fairly sharp though less flexible than any other of the blades, at least to my feeling.

The blade also has a design etched into its base, just forward of the top of the langet, on both sides; after numerous unsuccessful attempts to make a rubbing of the wretched thing I decided to draw it instead, so I'm afraid that'll have to do until I can make a proper rubbing of the design, which seems to be carved fairly shallowly into the metal. Though the leather bindings are intact (just), they have begun to come away from the wood and, having I suspect been untreated for some years, are very frail. I've begun applying leather cream to all the leather parts on our swords (and everything else, too, in time) with the aim of trying to restore some of their natural strength and prevent them from disintegrating entirely.

Length overall: 39.375in (100cm)
Length blade: 34.5in (87.5cm)
Length grip: 4.5in (11.5cm)
Length fullers: 8.5in (21.5cm)
Width: 2in (5cm) at base of blade, tapering to 1.5in (3.8cm) just prior to tip.
Tip: Spatulate (?)/"spear-point".
Width of cross-guard: 6.895in (16.8cm)

Overall views:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6070/img0429b.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7523/img0430j.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5227/img0431r.jpg

Bottom of sword, grip, pommel and cross-guard, prior to treatment:
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9813/img0441qp.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8207/img0428pa.jpg

Detail of design on blade base (probably not much good - sorry about that):
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9839/img0432am.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9115/img0434yf.jpg
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3359/img0436hq.jpg

Langets, cross-guard and bottom of edge:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5250/img0438mx.jpg

Pommel (and my shirt - admire its stripiness):
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3375/img0439ru.jpg

Fuller, base of blade and cross guard:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2504/img0440n.jpg

Reproduction of design on blade - approximately:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/403/img0465q.jpg

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2010, 10:07 PM

Yes RDG, appreciation is often a scarcely afforded commodity in our times, but nonetheless, we do what we do

I think that what always keeps me charged up is the tremendous satisfaction of discovering things and always hoping others will add to the trove. That doesnt happen as much as I would like to see, but there are some out there with the same passion.

Regarding the plight of the records, it seems that is a well known dilemma and so much has been destroyed by war and disaster. One thing I think of as an alternate resource in your case might be the National Army Museum in London. Some years ago, and in quite a number of cases, these folks were wonderfully helpful, and I was truly amazed at the volume of material they have compiled. While official records from one source may have been lost, the donations from private individuals seem to have often ended up here rather than the specialized museums.

Once cleaned and stabilized, and along with some photos and display graphics, I think these will offer a great representation of this event in the units history.

It is pretty hard to make out much from these images, and I am not computer savvy enough to use all the cropping, brightening features, but this too looks like the very much standard kaskara of the period. The drawing you added seems to stall each time I try to display it, and it would be great to determine more on the blade if I could see it.

19th May 2010, 12:35 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi RDGAC, with regards the pitting on the blade that is devoid of active rust...IMHO the blade has probably been subjected to electrolytic rust removal or the use of a weak acid. Kind Regards David PS With regards galvanised blades ....I believe Mole patented a galvanised blade or the process of galvanising a blade, in 1860 ......"galvanized,that is to say, coated them with zinc, whereby the said machetes and cutlasses are preserved from oxidisation" . However I think this was mainly for Maritime swords ...which were often painted (black) to help preserve them in the 'sea air'. Last edited by katana; 19th May 2010 at 12:48 PM.

18th May 2010, 02:06 PM	#2
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Kaskara #2, similar in proportions to #1 but with a single fuller running for approximately 10in (25cm) from cross-guard to its termination, and an unusual change in the depth of the edge, for want of a better phrase, some 13in (32cm) from the blade's tip. Seemed to be sharper than the previous blade, and indeed the sharpest of all, albeit with several chips and nicks in the blade. In moderate to good condition, at least compared to the others, with a minimum of damage to the blade and its grip intact. Little pitting and only small levels of rust, once again treated with oil and G0000 wire wool, have been found on this blade. There seem to be no markings, at least that I can make out. The grip appears to be of cowhide or something similar, and its stitching is happily intact. The two langets, however, are both bent, in the same direction, presumably indicative of poor care or possibly battle damage; perhaps in the case of the langet that has bent outwards, an enemy blade slipped down and forced it out? Overall the most complete of the four, scabbard notwithstanding. Length overall: 39.5in (100cm), Length blade (cross-guard to tip): 37.6in (88cm), Width at widest point (ricasso): 1.6in (4.2cm), Overall views: http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2909/img0400de.jpg http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/828/img0408uj.jpg Blade, tip to base, obverse (some images may require rotation): http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/392/img0402uk.jpg http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5691/img0403fy.jpg http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5562/img0404co.jpg Cross-guard, grip and pommel, obverse and reverse respectively: http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/64/img0405j.jpg http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7903/img0407e.jpg (The stitching holding the cowhide - or whatever it is - together is visible in the first picture.) View of distorted langets: http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2551/img0411l.jpg Two views showing the alteration experienced by the edge in depth, ~13in short of the tip: http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5701/img0412ol.jpg http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2069/img0413m.jpg A fairly flexible blade, though by no means as bendy as the last I shall put up. On with the show, and our next example is what I believe to be a somewhat unusual specimen that has me a little intrigued.

19th May 2010, 11:54 AM	#3
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Kaskara #3, which is by far the... er... shiniest of the lot, for some reason. My inspection has failed to locate any active corrosion on its surface, though very numerous areas of black, inactive rust, along with some pitting, can be seen. It's as if the blade has been galvanised, a process which, I understand, has been in use for some 150 years and might thus have been employed by European swordsmiths exporting their wares to the Sudan and nearby areas for use in kaskara manufacture. On the other hand, if galvanised, why has the blade seen such corrosion and pitting, visible on the attached photographs? I'm leaning to the hypothesis that this blade was treated after it entered the United Kingdom but have no doubt that the members here will have come across similar weapons before, and have an explanation more in line with Occam's Razor. As well as pitting and rust, the blade has the usual chips and nicks in its edge, and its tip has been flattened considerably, suggesting perhaps that it was dropped; given the lack of body armour on European (and especially British) troops at this time, I think it unlikely that the point met impenetrable plate. This blade has proportions, unsurprisingly, broadly similar to those of our other kaskara, but is unique in having no fewer than five fullers, all of the same narrow type as on our first example, which run for (on average, accounting for minor variations in individual fuller length) 8.25in (21cm) from the base of the blade. At said base are a pair of large tabs, seemingly forge-welded or similar to the flats of the blade, and presumably intended to broaden it a little and allow the cross-guard and grip a firmer attachment to the base and tang, though that's probably an erroneous presumption. A curious aspect is the small piece of what looks like copper or perhaps gold (depending upon the light in which one views it), which can be found 10.25in (11cm) from the tip. Moving downward, the cross-guard is loose and can be moved relatively easily, although it does not come off entirely. This I would ascribe to the partially absent wrapping of the grip, for about half of the leather strips which should bind it are missing. The grip's wood, however, appears sound, as does the remaining leather and its disc pommel. The nail passing through the grip remains in place and secure. Overall one of the more interesting kaskara we have, quite sharp and relatively flexible, if somewhat rough. For a weapon at least 126 years old, I don't think she's doing badly! Length overall: 39.4in (100cm) Length blade (from horizontal of cross-guard): 34in (86.4cm) Length grip: 4.5in (11.5cm), Width cross-guard horizontal: 5.5in (14cm) Length of fullers (average): 8.25in (21cm) from tabs at base of blade. Overall of sword, obverse: http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2575/img0414y.jpg http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3254/img0415h.jpg Overall, reverse: http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2328/img0416sz.jpg Grip and cross-guard, obverse http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1274/img0419c.jpg Grip and cross-guard, reverse: http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1834/img0417s.jpg http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4604/img0420h.jpg (Note small tab in lower picture between lower vertical portion of cross-guard and grip - any ideas?) Cross-guard and langets: http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2351/img0423y.jpg http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3184/img0422fz.jpg Cross-guard and tab, reverse: http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7728/img0424n.jpg Cross-guard and tab, obverse: http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1575/img0425n.jpg Pommel: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8194/img0426tr.jpg Grip, cross-guard, langets and upper portion of blade, reverse, perspective: http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3640/img0427g.jpg Details of copper/gold on blade: http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7266/img0453l.jpg http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3430/img0452bm.jpg http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3227/img0421r.jpg

19th May 2010, 08:33 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Nicely done David! Thank you for the note on Mole and galvanizing, and it would be interesting to learn more on the use of this process in England in these times. I have been rather determined to discover more on these kaskaras, and how they might have been captured at Tel el Kebir in 1882, as this conflict was between nationalist Egyptian forces rebelling against the Khedive, and the British forces protecting thier interests in Egypt and the Suez Canal. The key problem, as previously noted, being that the Egyptian Army was essentially a modernized army, now equipped with Remington carbines and revolvers, and wearing military uniforms. That having been said, I think it is important to note that the rebel forces were not technically the forces of the Khedive, in the militarily outfitted sense, though it would be likely that a large part of them had this equipment. It is known that the Khedives forces, by 1876, had been receiving these modern firearms ("Khedive Ismail's Army" , John P.Dunn, 2005, p.38). It is also worthy of note that these forces also included the regiments known as the Khedives 'Iron Men'. Certainly the Turko-Circassian aristocracy as well as the well established Mamluk traditions had firmly emplaced the use of medieval style armour, and these elite regiments were carrying forth those traditions. The reason I bring this up is that in these times, apparantly the British industrial engine in Birmingham was supplying helmets of traditional style to these Khedival troops, as well as producing chain mail for them. While it is unclear about swords and blades that might have been produced along with these, it does seem quite possible that medieval type broadsword blades, well known in the kaskaras, could well have been produced in some number as well. The comments and observations on galvanizing were what triggered this thought, as well as the fact that these blades seem somewhat more 'industrial' and without the typical characteristics of many of these swords of the Mahdist trophy groups. In trying to establish who then, in the Egyptian forces, might have been using kaskaras, we must consider that within the Khedives forces were also irregular troops of Bedouin in sizeable contingents, along with small squadrons of Shayqiyya. These units who functioned much as the Bedouin, in duties such as raiders, scouts, border guards etc. and thier home areas were actually in generally the same regions as that which encompassed the campaign at Tel el Kebir in 1882. Incorporated in these groups were elements of the Beni Amer tribe, actually a component of the large Beja group more familiar in Sudanese areas, but certainly present in these parts of Egypt and Northern Sudan. Here is what is important, I have seen illustrations of the Beni Amer, mounted, wearing chain mail, and kaskaras! It would seem entirely possible, if not likely, that many of these tribesmen would have joined Ahmed Urabi in revolt, along with the profound ties to the Shayqiyya Brotherhood, and Bedouin. Here may be where these clearly Sudanese broadswords may have found thier way into the hands of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards, just as has been included in RDG's description. It is also worthy of note that , "...the British admiration for an enemy intensified thier desire to collect war trophies". (Maj. Gen. Sir Alexander Bruce Tulloch). Also, noted by war correspondent G.W. Stevens after Omdurman in 1898, the respect the British had for these adversaries remained as he noted, "..our men were perfect, but the Dervishes were superb beyond perfection". The instructions not to wantonly destroy the combatants at Tel el Kebir was certainly to try to defray as much damage as possible in this unfortunate situation, and certainly reflected much of this same perspective. It seems likely of course that many of these forces may have become part of the Khedives forces in the later campaigns. While often times museum attributions and provenances can certainly become clouded over many years, but in this I very much commend RDG for his efforts to find support for that with these kaskaras. It is an example that should be followed by the staff and constituents of all museums, and I hope the discussion here will prove helpful in the further display of these historic swords. All best regards, Jim

20th May 2010, 12:15 PM	#6
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Thank you both for the insights; I shall have to look in to our records (such as they are) to see where we got our caption information. Unfortunately, the records of the 4th DG are sparse (as indeed are all of our records); a fire at their barracks circa 1920 destroyed a great many records going back to the regiment's foundation in 1685, and over the years yet more records have been lost owing to neglect, mishandling, wartime damage (the 5th Dragoon Guards placed their records into safe storage for the Second World War, only for said safe storage facility to be bombed flat by the Luftwaffe - argh!) the sheer ignorance of the squaddies on the importance of such documents (with no offence at all meant; it's not their job to be archivists, it's their job to be good soldiers, and so long as they do that I can forgive them most anything, however frustrating it might be for us down the line), and the habit of QMs to regard these enormous boxes of paper as so much useless encumbrance. I'm told by my boss (an ex-soldier himself) that on many occasions quartermasters would simply detail some luckless corporal and a private (or trooper, in our case) to go through the records and destroy any that weren't absolutely vital - or indeed, just to burn the lot as long as they weren't in use. It makes one bang one's head on the wall nowadays, but one can't really blame them. Regardless, however, we must try. I happen to feel it's my duty to do so, and it's good to see that people appreciate that. Makes one feel quite humbled, really. Aw, shucks! In any event, on with the show. Our final kaskara is much like our second specimen; it's in good condition (for ours, anyway), with its blade largely free from active rust and cleaned up; with that removed a good coating of oil (I cannot recommend Young's "303" enough, since it comes in a spray can and provides a good, durable coating - but am I right?) and some treatment applied, however belatedly, to its leather bindings and pommel should see it through, though I still dislike the unsightly black blotches of inactive corrosion. Once again it has a single, broad fuller, and is fairly sharp though less flexible than any other of the blades, at least to my feeling. The blade also has a design etched into its base, just forward of the top of the langet, on both sides; after numerous unsuccessful attempts to make a rubbing of the wretched thing I decided to draw it instead, so I'm afraid that'll have to do until I can make a proper rubbing of the design, which seems to be carved fairly shallowly into the metal. Though the leather bindings are intact (just), they have begun to come away from the wood and, having I suspect been untreated for some years, are very frail. I've begun applying leather cream to all the leather parts on our swords (and everything else, too, in time) with the aim of trying to restore some of their natural strength and prevent them from disintegrating entirely. Length overall: 39.375in (100cm) Length blade: 34.5in (87.5cm) Length grip: 4.5in (11.5cm) Length fullers: 8.5in (21.5cm) Width: 2in (5cm) at base of blade, tapering to 1.5in (3.8cm) just prior to tip. Tip: Spatulate (?)/"spear-point". Width of cross-guard: 6.895in (16.8cm) Overall views: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6070/img0429b.jpg http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7523/img0430j.jpg http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5227/img0431r.jpg Bottom of sword, grip, pommel and cross-guard, prior to treatment: http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9813/img0441qp.jpg http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8207/img0428pa.jpg Detail of design on blade base (probably not much good - sorry about that): http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9839/img0432am.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9115/img0434yf.jpg http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3359/img0436hq.jpg Langets, cross-guard and bottom of edge: http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5250/img0438mx.jpg Pommel (and my shirt - admire its stripiness): http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3375/img0439ru.jpg Fuller, base of blade and cross guard: http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2504/img0440n.jpg Reproduction of design on blade - approximately: http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/403/img0465q.jpg

20th May 2010, 10:07 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Yes RDG, appreciation is often a scarcely afforded commodity in our times, but nonetheless, we do what we do I think that what always keeps me charged up is the tremendous satisfaction of discovering things and always hoping others will add to the trove. That doesnt happen as much as I would like to see, but there are some out there with the same passion. Regarding the plight of the records, it seems that is a well known dilemma and so much has been destroyed by war and disaster. One thing I think of as an alternate resource in your case might be the National Army Museum in London. Some years ago, and in quite a number of cases, these folks were wonderfully helpful, and I was truly amazed at the volume of material they have compiled. While official records from one source may have been lost, the donations from private individuals seem to have often ended up here rather than the specialized museums. Once cleaned and stabilized, and along with some photos and display graphics, I think these will offer a great representation of this event in the units history. It is pretty hard to make out much from these images, and I am not computer savvy enough to use all the cropping, brightening features, but this too looks like the very much standard kaskara of the period. The drawing you added seems to stall each time I try to display it, and it would be great to determine more on the blade if I could see it.