Chinsese weapons : need some ID

fearn · 13th May 2010, 03:37 PM

I'd suggest that the spear may be simply the head of what they call a "halberd" in English. The sabers could all be hudiedaos.

I suspect these are fairly recent wushu weapons, especially the hooks. Perhaps no one was posting, not from lack of knowledge, but from a concern that recent, poorly stored weapons might be passed off as antiques.

F

Jim McDougall · 13th May 2010, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

I'd suggest that the spear may be simply the head of what they call a "halberd" in English. The sabers could all be hudiedaos.

I suspect these are fairly recent wushu weapons, especially the hooks. Perhaps no one was posting, not from lack of knowledge, but from a concern that recent, poorly stored weapons might be passed off as antiques.

F

Very good point Fearn! and that is indeed a valid reason especially as we know that the production of 'antique' weapons has become a prolific cottage industry in China. Thank you for the observations, and in these kinds of cases, rather than making precise assessments of the weapons presented it is often better to address the weapon forms themselves from a historic perspective. Adding information on other known examples as well as suggestions for reference and identification that are known is also very helpful. I'd like to think of these threads as a sort of think tank for the study of historic weapons which I think is characteristically pretty well done here most of the time.......you are another who always adds helpful and very useful input constantly.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 13th May 2010, 06:23 PM

Hi Yuanzhamin,
As I mentioned, this is far outside my usual field of study, but I did come across some note cards, and I think searching with the feature here will reveal earlier discussions discussing some of these.

The shafted arms with the crescent type blades are apparantly termed 'shuang gou' or double hook swords, or ye liang shuang gou; colloquially paired moon hooks (hopefully these versions of whatever terms are used in Chinese are reasonably close). The form itself, as noted, seems to derive from ancient types as early as Spring & Autumn period (770-221BC). These were used in pairs and ideal for dismounting horsemen, although they apprarantly were not military, but civilian weapons.

I believe these may also be termed double head tiger swords (Hu Tou Shuang Gou), but cannot be certain. One of the first known illustrations (in the west) of these was in an English newspaper, "The Graphic" March 3,1877.
In these times, keen awareness of China was becoming even more pronounced and civilian martial artists had become a virtual security type industry. Groups and organizations of these martial artists were secured to protect residences, trade convoys and in many other situations. In many cases, numbers of these martial artists, in the sense of privateers, became predators themselves, and formed much of the ranks of the well known Chinese pirates.

The so called butterfly knives were also a predominant weapon of the martial artists and often the pirates. They occurred as noted, in varying sizes and degree of variation, but were, like the gou, used in pairs typically.

The unusual hafted weapon shown with the antlered skull seems another of the often unusual shaped items used, and seems to correspond to things I have seen but cannot recall exactly the source. I believe I have seen something similar in perhaps the Chinese reference by Werner (1930s) but dont have it here. These were line drawings and not sure how accurate, but the claw reference seems to be likely.

Without hands on examination, these weapons seem that they might have been part of a store of weapons of these martial artists on the latter 19th century, and most interesting examples.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 15th May 2010, 04:10 AM

Gav has several pair of shuang gou that are exceptional. It seems that these are rarer than most other Chinese weapons and are not commonly seen. Also, unfortunately a lot of fakes out there (case in point, eBay just recently).

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2010, 08:03 PM

Well noted Mark, these shuang gou are quite unusual to find, especially older ones! and Gav seems to have keen insight into both finding and authenticating these kinds of Chinese weapons. The 'antique production' industry in China continues to produce feverishly, running closely with that of India.

Gavin Nugent · 16th May 2010, 05:41 AM

Based on the image I can not say much other than the gou seem to be of a form that have been seen in the 1920-30 but could well be much newer.

Gav

yuanzhumin · 19th May 2010, 11:18 PM

Sorry for this long interruption. I've been following this thread, but I couldn 't post before as my computer broke down few days ago. This is terrible how we can become dependant from these things.
I have some new pictures of these weapons and some others from my friend that i will post later.

16th May 2010, 05:41 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Gou Based on the image I can not say much other than the gou seem to be of a form that have been seen in the 1920-30 but could well be much newer. Gav

13th May 2010, 03:37 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'd suggest that the spear may be simply the head of what they call a "halberd" in English. The sabers could all be hudiedaos. I suspect these are fairly recent wushu weapons, especially the hooks. Perhaps no one was posting, not from lack of knowledge, but from a concern that recent, poorly stored weapons might be passed off as antiques. F

13th May 2010, 06:23 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Yuanzhamin, As I mentioned, this is far outside my usual field of study, but I did come across some note cards, and I think searching with the feature here will reveal earlier discussions discussing some of these. The shafted arms with the crescent type blades are apparantly termed 'shuang gou' or double hook swords, or ye liang shuang gou; colloquially paired moon hooks (hopefully these versions of whatever terms are used in Chinese are reasonably close). The form itself, as noted, seems to derive from ancient types as early as Spring & Autumn period (770-221BC). These were used in pairs and ideal for dismounting horsemen, although they apprarantly were not military, but civilian weapons. I believe these may also be termed double head tiger swords (Hu Tou Shuang Gou), but cannot be certain. One of the first known illustrations (in the west) of these was in an English newspaper, "The Graphic" March 3,1877. In these times, keen awareness of China was becoming even more pronounced and civilian martial artists had become a virtual security type industry. Groups and organizations of these martial artists were secured to protect residences, trade convoys and in many other situations. In many cases, numbers of these martial artists, in the sense of privateers, became predators themselves, and formed much of the ranks of the well known Chinese pirates. The so called butterfly knives were also a predominant weapon of the martial artists and often the pirates. They occurred as noted, in varying sizes and degree of variation, but were, like the gou, used in pairs typically. The unusual hafted weapon shown with the antlered skull seems another of the often unusual shaped items used, and seems to correspond to things I have seen but cannot recall exactly the source. I believe I have seen something similar in perhaps the Chinese reference by Werner (1930s) but dont have it here. These were line drawings and not sure how accurate, but the claw reference seems to be likely. Without hands on examination, these weapons seem that they might have been part of a store of weapons of these martial artists on the latter 19th century, and most interesting examples. All best regards, Jim

15th May 2010, 04:10 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Gav has several pair of shuang gou that are exceptional. It seems that these are rarer than most other Chinese weapons and are not commonly seen. Also, unfortunately a lot of fakes out there (case in point, eBay just recently).

15th May 2010, 08:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Well noted Mark, these shuang gou are quite unusual to find, especially older ones! and Gav seems to have keen insight into both finding and authenticating these kinds of Chinese weapons. The 'antique production' industry in China continues to produce feverishly, running closely with that of India.

19th May 2010, 11:18 PM	#7
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Sorry for this long interruption. I've been following this thread, but I couldn 't post before as my computer broke down few days ago. This is terrible how we can become dependant from these things. I have some new pictures of these weapons and some others from my friend that i will post later.