Now I have a Tajong!!

[asomotif]

Patina is not very easy to define.

In some circles patina is seen as a (green) discoloration of metal, either caused by time, or by chemicals.

In ethnographic collecting patina is seen as all changes that come to an object during its life time. This also includes dirt.

For example, I can not imagine that you would take an old fetish statue from Congo and decide to gently remove the dirt in order to reveal its true patina

In this case my choice would have been to leave the dirt or at least some of it.

[A. G. Maisey]

We all have our own preferences, true, but words do have a definite meaning, and that meaning is set down in dictionaries.

The original use of the word patina applied only to bronze, and described the usually green incrustation that old bronze can achieve, however as time passed this use was extended to other materials, in respect of patina as it applies to wood, the meaning is pretty much as I gave it:-

the gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing (Oxford).

This is also the way in which the word "patina" is understood in the antique furniture trade, it is not just an empty dictionary definition.
In the English language use of the word dates from about 1750.

However, dirt is something different to patina:- dirt hides patina, it does not enhance it.

If we like dirt on something as evidence of its age, that is a personal preference, and I would never speak against personal preferences.

But dirt is not patina.

In respect of keris, we are dealing with an iconic cultural object.

It is in fact disrespectful to the spirit and inherited presence of a keris to leave it accomodated in dirty or inferior dress.

If we choose to retain the old dress that it is in when we acquire it, that old dress should be put into as good condition as is possible, out of respect for the keris. However, if the old dress has already deteriorated beyond a restorable state, then we should provide the keris with new clothes.

In my opinion Detlef has acted in exactly the right manner where the keris under discussion is concerned:- he has paid respect to the keris and he has sympathetically restored and cleaned the existing dress, which will ensure that it is preserved for the future.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We all have our own preferences, true, but words do have a definite meaning, and that meaning is set down in dictionaries.

The original use of the word patina applied only to bronze, and described the usually green incrustation that old bronze can achieve, however as time passed this use was extended to other materials, in respect of patina as it applies to wood, the meaning is pretty much as I gave it:-

the gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing (Oxford).

This is also the way in which the word "patina" is understood in the antique furniture trade, it is not just an empty dictionary definition.
In the English language use of the word dates from about 1750.

However, dirt is something different to patina:- dirt hides patina, it does not enhance it.

If we like dirt on something as evidence of its age, that is a personal preference, and I would never speak against personal preferences.

But dirt is not patina.

In respect of keris, we are dealing with an iconic cultural object.

It is in fact disrespectful to the spirit and inherited presence of a keris to leave it accomodated in dirty or inferior dress.

If we choose to retain the old dress that it is in when we acquire it, that old dress should be put into as good condition as is possible, out of respect for the keris. However, if the old dress has already deteriorated beyond a restorable state, then we should provide the keris with new clothes.

In my opinion Detlef has acted in exactly the right manner where the keris under discussion is concerned:- he has paid respect to the keris and he has sympathetically restored and cleaned the existing dress, which will ensure that it is preserved for the future.

Indeed in the case if it was only to remove dirt steel wool shouldn't be nessesary to get " a quicker result". Steel wool removes also surface scratches and more of the original patina than you want ( or not).
Patience is always the best in doing restorework course its mostly not reversable.

This is also the way in which the word "patina" is understood in the antique furniture trade, it is not just an empty dictionary definition.
In the English language use of the word dates from about 1750

Please don't compare ethnographic object with furniture !!!

The presence of patina on an ethnographic objects makes a big part of the prize. Any change/remove/cleaning of the object's patina will certainly lowere the value.

I am not enough into kerisses and haven't seen Sajens objects in real ( always difficult too see patina on pics only) to say what was the best in this case. All I know if that I have sold some Tajons in the past and I am sure that the clients who bought them ( but they are art collectors) whould not be interested if I should have polished them up with steel wool.
Gladly there are also keris collectors who doesn't mind.

[Mytribalworld]

One of the tricks of the trade in the furniture restoration business is to moisten a small pad of cloth with gum turpentine and using car polish you polish off the filth on old french polished, shellaced or varnished surfaces.

You can get a quicker result if you use 0000 steel wool , and also if you use a clean and polish paste rather than just a polish paste, but you then run the risk of going through the finish

.

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Indeed in the case if it was only to remove dirt steel wool shouldn't be nessesary to get " a quicker result". Steel wool removes also surface scratches and more of the original patina than you want ( or not).
Patience is always the best in doing restorework course its mostly not reversable.

Please don't compare ethnographic object with furniture !!!

The presence of patina on an ethnographic objects makes a big part of the prize. Any change/remove/cleaning of the object's patina will certainly lowere the value.

I am not enough into kerisses and haven't seen Sajens object in real ( always difficult too see patina on pics only) to say what was the best in this case. All I know if that I have sold some Tajons in the past and I am sure that the clients who bought them ( but they are art collectors) whould not be interested if I should have polished them up with steel wool.
Gladly there are also keris collectors who doesn't mind.

[David]

Arjan, #0000 steel wool will not scratch the surface very easily. It is a very, very fine steel wool. I have often used it on wood to revive patina hiden behind dirt.
As a collector of keris, which is most definitely an ethnographic item, i would definitely agree with most here that dirt on a keris is not considered patina. Exactly because of the ethnographic nature of the keris it is considered, as Alan has already stated, rather disrespectful to leave the dress in such a state. Cleaning it or replacing it is the culturally accepted and expected thing to do. From the collectors stand point outside of the culture i prefer to maintain the original dress whenever possible as opposed to replacing it. But i would never leave dirt on it for any ethnographic reasons. Now i do understand your reasoning in regards to something like an African fetish. But just as you are shocked by the thought of comparing ethnographic objects with furniture i must point out that you also cannot compare the African fetish to a keris. They are apples and oranges in the ethnographic collecting world. Of course you wouldn't clean the gunk off a fetish. You would no doubt be cleaning off layers of offerings that have been fed to it in the past, a big a part of it's history as an ethnographic item. This is not the case, however, with the keris. No self-respecting Indonesian would keep his keris in such a condition and as a collector trying to understand and respect the culture of the item i am collection i choose to follow in that tradition of care and maintenance.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by David

Arjan, #0000 steel wool will not scratch the surface very easily. It is a very, very fine steel wool. I have often used it on wood to revive patina hiden behind dirt.
As a collector of keris, which is most definitely an ethnographic item, i would definitely agree with most here that dirt on a keris is not considered patina. Exactly because of the ethnographic nature of the keris it is considered, as Alan has already stated, rather disrespectful to leave the dress in such a state. Cleaning it or replacing it is the culturally accepted and expected thing to do. From the collectors stand point outside of the culture i prefer to maintain the original dress whenever possible as opposed to replacing it. But i would never leave dirt on it for any ethnographic reasons. Now i do understand your reasoning in regards to something like an African fetish. But just as you are shocked by the thought of comparing ethnographic objects with furniture i must point out that you also cannot compare the African fetish to a keris. They are apples and oranges in the ethnographic collecting world. Of course you wouldn't clean the gunk off a fetish. You would no doubt be cleaning off layers of offerings that have been fed to it in the past, a big a part of it's history as an ethnographic item. This is not the case, however, with the keris. No self-respecting Indonesian would keep his keris in such a condition and as a collector trying to understand and respect the culture of the item i am collection i choose to follow in that tradition of care and maintenance.

Hi David,

thanks for your explanation, I see why I don't collect them.

I also see there are two groups that collect kerisses, the first who are the fanatic real keris lovers and are honering them as weapons.

The second group collect them as art object and don't want to change anything.

I'm in between somewhere I think but should rather buy from the second group.

[BluErf]

Great job Detlef!

Now the keris looks the way it is meant to be. A dark (aggressive) old hilt, sheath with warm and glowing red finish. You now have a good old tajong in desirable condition. Welcome to the club, Detlef!