Help with Keris ID?

tom hyle · 1st June 2005, 09:36 AM

There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

littledirtnap · 1st June 2005, 01:37 PM

Thank you both! I'll pick an evening soon and clean it..I think it would be pretty cool if it were hilted in Iceland

Kiai Carita · 7th June 2005, 08:41 PM

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

Rick · 7th June 2005, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

No contradiction .

When it comes to keris we are all students .

Thanks for your input Kiai .

Alam Shah · 9th June 2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

Hi Kiai Carita,
No contradition here...

After gazing the blade for a long time, I don't think it's a Bugis blade. However, I do agree that it might be a Sumatran blade due to its gentle luks and the shape of sogokan depan, sogokan belakang, janur and bungkul (the centre portion of the lower half near the base of the blade). Thank you for the update, Kiai.

Nechesh, I'm no expert either..

.

Bill · 9th June 2005, 04:31 PM

If I were to guess, the hilt looks to be 20thC; because of the brass work, shape & condition. The "spacer" (quite a mystry why it is even here) if leather, I don't know; if its really hemp & pitch, my guess would be that it was re-hilted in Mindanao. My knowledge of the keris is very little. The bawah, (this form) I assume by most of what I have seen posted is always suppose to be an elephant head. I wonder if this is true. When the Portuguese arrive in Celebes, it is noted all the men carry a keris. Anyone have any idea of what one of these keris would look like? 14", the dapor, the bawah, & nickle content; could this be 16 or 17thC Bugis?

nechesh · 9th June 2005, 06:28 PM

Hi Bill. This blade certainly is old. Though judging tangguh is not my strong point it is my understanding that the erasure of various elements of the ricikan from years of blade erosion would make it more difficult to place this keris in a specific period. But i wouldn't be surprised if it were indeed 17thC.
The profile seen in the gandik of a keris is definitly not always supposed to be an "elephant head". I put this in quotes because AFAIK there is no definitive proof that it is indeed supposed to be an actual elephant. But you also see keris (more rarely) with nagas and singos. I recently saw bali blade with a human face in this position. A seated human can rarely be seen as well. A birds had is not one i recall ever seeing and i am fairly positive that the keris in question was indeed intended to be an "elephant head" that has eroded away.
I would still be more likely to see this blade as Sumatran or Javanese before Bugis. It's slender form and general profile does not appear Bugis to me.

Bill · 9th June 2005, 09:28 PM

I'm assuming that the original smith is likely to make his own tools. His limitations are going to be of both skill & tools. Although other craftsmen may have been involved in file work, I would think that would be on pieces of more value. I recall reading that in one Bone city alone of an estimate of over 200 smiths. Not all of these smiths would be making keris, but there must have been a number of smiths, of various degrees, one could commission a keris. If one could not afford good file work, you might have to settle for a "beak" or whatever it is, I'm sure it was of some importance to someone. It really doesn't look like much more was ever there, more cheisel work, than file work. The "Luwa" may well have been the norm, of the metal used when this piece was made. The 14" blade strikes me as keris that would be carried by someone who needed a weapon, maybe even more than a spritual aid.

1st June 2005, 09:36 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

1st June 2005, 01:37 PM	#2
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Thank you both! I'll pick an evening soon and clean it..I think it would be pretty cool if it were hilted in Iceland

7th June 2005, 08:41 PM	#3
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

9th June 2005, 04:31 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	If I were to guess, the hilt looks to be 20thC; because of the brass work, shape & condition. The "spacer" (quite a mystry why it is even here) if leather, I don't know; if its really hemp & pitch, my guess would be that it was re-hilted in Mindanao. My knowledge of the keris is very little. The bawah, (this form) I assume by most of what I have seen posted is always suppose to be an elephant head. I wonder if this is true. When the Portuguese arrive in Celebes, it is noted all the men carry a keris. Anyone have any idea of what one of these keris would look like? 14", the dapor, the bawah, & nickle content; could this be 16 or 17thC Bugis?

9th June 2005, 06:28 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Bill. This blade certainly is old. Though judging tangguh is not my strong point it is my understanding that the erasure of various elements of the ricikan from years of blade erosion would make it more difficult to place this keris in a specific period. But i wouldn't be surprised if it were indeed 17thC. The profile seen in the gandik of a keris is definitly not always supposed to be an "elephant head". I put this in quotes because AFAIK there is no definitive proof that it is indeed supposed to be an actual elephant. But you also see keris (more rarely) with nagas and singos. I recently saw bali blade with a human face in this position. A seated human can rarely be seen as well. A birds had is not one i recall ever seeing and i am fairly positive that the keris in question was indeed intended to be an "elephant head" that has eroded away. I would still be more likely to see this blade as Sumatran or Javanese before Bugis. It's slender form and general profile does not appear Bugis to me.

9th June 2005, 09:28 PM	#8
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I'm assuming that the original smith is likely to make his own tools. His limitations are going to be of both skill & tools. Although other craftsmen may have been involved in file work, I would think that would be on pieces of more value. I recall reading that in one Bone city alone of an estimate of over 200 smiths. Not all of these smiths would be making keris, but there must have been a number of smiths, of various degrees, one could commission a keris. If one could not afford good file work, you might have to settle for a "beak" or whatever it is, I'm sure it was of some importance to someone. It really doesn't look like much more was ever there, more cheisel work, than file work. The "Luwa" may well have been the norm, of the metal used when this piece was made. The 14" blade strikes me as keris that would be carried by someone who needed a weapon, maybe even more than a spritual aid.