Dapur Carita?

[Greybeard]

Carita Keprabhon -- Sabuk Inten ... I always find it difficult to tell the difference between these two 11-luk dapurs. How to distinguish them?

Heinz

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Carita Keprabhon -- Sabuk Inten ... I always find it difficult to tell the difference between these two 11-luk dapurs. How to distinguish them?

Heinz

Dear Heinz,
Easy, see my book page 181... The difference is jenggot, tikel alis, kruwingan, and gusen.
Jean

[Greybeard]

Thank you, Jean. I will have a look this evening after coming home from work.

Heinz

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Thank you, Jean. I will have a look this evening after coming home from work.

Heinz

Hello Heinz,

my way to affect a dapur is that I write down what the blade have and then look to the books I have.

Regards,

Detlef

[Greybeard]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Heinz,

my way to affect a dapur is that I write down what the blade have and then look to the books I have.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

My method of determining a given dapur is probably very similar to yours: I compare the ricikan of my keris with the ricikan in the books ...

I think one of the problems of determining the dapur of older keris consists of their sometimes worn down ricikan.

I have four keris dapur Sabuk Inten, attributed to four different tangguh (Old Madura, Demak, Mataram Senopaten, and Yogyakarta), and the ricikan of each keris became more or less indistinct or have been completely gone. Thus it can be difficult to distinguish very similar dapur (e.g. Sengkelat vs. Parungsari) from each other.

Regards,

Heinz

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Hello Detlef,

My method of determining a given dapur is probably very similar to yours: I compare the ricikan of my keris with the ricikan in the books ...

I think one of the problems of determining the dapur of older keris consists of their sometimes worn down ricikan.

I have four keris dapur Sabuk Inten, attributed to four different tangguh (Old Madura, Demak, Mataram Senopaten, and Yogyakarta), and the ricikan of each keris became more or less indistinct or have been completely gone. Thus it can be difficult to distinguish very similar dapur (e.g. Sengkelat vs. Parungsari) from each other.

Regards,

Heinz

Hello Heinz,

yes, like you see (and special I see) it's indeed very difficult to define the correct dapur. And it's great to have this forum to learn and so knowledge members like Alan.

Regards,

Detlef

[Greybeard]

Hello Detlef,

I completely agree with you!

Regards,

Heinz

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe carita keprabon has two lambe gajah, and sabuk inten has one lambe gajah.

Sabuk inten need not carry kruwingan, but carita keprabon should carry kruwingan.

The 11 luk blade shown has kembang kacang, one jalen, one lambe gajah, greneng, and front & back sogokan. I am not able to see if it has kruwingan and I am only assuming it has tikel alis.

Carita keprabon should have gusen , but this is according to Surakarta pakem, and in other tangguh the gusen may be absent, and the jenggot is always optional.

Where a keris is following the Surakarta pakem, and it carries kruwingan, it naturally follows that it must have gusen, but if the kruwingan are not present, then it cannot have gusen.

Thus, if we set forth the ricikan that define a keris, we should also state the pakem that we are following. I have used two pakem here, one is the pakem presented in Haryono Haryoguritno's book, the other is the Surakarta Pakem.

Haryoguritno gives carita keprabon as:- kembang kacang 1, jalen 1, lambe gajah 2, pecetan, tikel alis, sogokan depan & belakang, sraweyan, greneng, kruwingan 2

The Surakarta Pakem gives carita keprabon as:- sekar kacang, lambe gajah 2, jalen, sogokan, tikel alis, sraweyan, greneng, ri pandan, gula milir

Haryonoguritno gives sabuk inten as:- kembang kacang 1, jalen 1, lambe gajah 1,pecetan, tikel alis, sogokan depan & belakang, sraweyan , greneng.

The Surakarta Pakem gives sabuk inten as:- sekar kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, sogokan, tikel alis, sraweyan, greneng

I've abbreviated the above by ommitting the obvious.

It can be fun to play the Name Game, but with keris there is some variation in those names according to who wrote the rules of the game. What this means is that if we wish to maintain our sanity it is best not to become too pedantic about what ricikan are found in what dhapur, because as soon as we think we know it all, somebody will come along and demonstrate that we don't know quite as much as we think we might.

Here is a diagram that gives names of ricikan according to a system that is accepted in Surakarta.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe carita keprabon has two lambe gajah, and sabuk inten has one lambe gajah.

Sabuk inten need not carry kruwingan, but carita keprabon should carry kruwingan.

The 11 luk blade shown has kembang kacang, one jalen, one lambe gajah, greneng, and front & back sogokan. I am not able to see if it has kruwingan and I am only assuming it has tikel alis.

Carita keprabon should have gusen , but this is according to Surakarta pakem, and in other tangguh the gusen may be absent, and the jenggot is always optional.

Where a keris is following the Surakarta pakem, and it carries kruwingan, it naturally follows that it must have gusen, but if the kruwingan are not present, then it cannot have gusen.

Thus, if we set forth the ricikan that define a keris, we should also state the pakem that we are following. I have used two pakem here, one is the pakem presented in Haryono Haryoguritno's book, the other is the Surakarta Pakem.

Haryoguritno gives carita keprabon as:- kembang kacang 1, jalen 1, lambe gajah 2, pecetan, tikel alis, sogokan depan & belakang, sraweyan, greneng, kruwingan 2

The Surakarta Pakem gives carita keprabon as:- sekar kacang, lambe gajah 2, jalen, sogokan, tikel alis, sraweyan, greneng, ri pandan, gula milir

Haryonoguritno gives sabuk inten as:- kembang kacang 1, jalen 1, lambe gajah 1,pecetan, tikel alis, sogokan depan & belakang, sraweyan , greneng.

The Surakarta Pakem gives sabuk inten as:- sekar kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, sogokan, tikel alis, sraweyan, greneng

I've abbreviated the above by ommitting the obvious.

It can be fun to play the Name Game, but with keris there is some variation in those names according to who wrote the rules of the game. What this means is that if we wish to maintain our sanity it is best not to become too pedantic about what ricikan are found in what dhapur, because as soon as we think we know it all, somebody will come along and demonstrate that we don't know quite as much as we think we might.

Here is a diagram that gives names of ricikan according to a system that is accepted in Surakarta.

Hello Alan,

thank you very much for the elaborate completion. And of course you are right that the blade has only one lambe gajah. And yes, it has tikel alis and no kruwingan and no gusen. So when I understand correct has this blade the dapur sabuk inten. So I have learned now (I hope) to difference between this two dapurs.

Best,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Dear Heinz,
Easy, see my book page 181... The difference is jenggot, tikel alis, kruwingan, and gusen.
Jean

Dear Jean,

yes, your book help affect a dapur but most of the time I look inside the book from Haryono Haryoguritno.

Detlef