comments on this barung lamenation?

[Ian]

Rick:

I think your's and Spunjer's are made similarly. But don't forget the profile of his blade is different from your's. Basically, your blade is a tapering "V" but Spunjer's is somewhat hollow ground above a swollen edge, with a pronounced ridge separating the two. Just by the nature of the grind on Spunjer's you would expect to see more patterning because more layers are being exposed by virtue of the grinding. The fact that there is considerable contrast between the metals of the various layers makes Spunjer's pattern more obvious.

Ian.

[RSWORD]

I will take a poke at these two pieces. Spunjers example appears to be of pile construction. That is where various bars of steel/iron are used, "piled" upon one another and forged out. The lamination that is seen is a result of the different metals etching out in different ways. In Rick's example, I believe the blade is of sandwhich construction. The center portion or body of the blade is lamellar steel with a long forging flaw down the center. The cutting edge is probably a higher carbon steel that has been sandwhiched and then heat treated. I believe it was then put to a post-quench annealing. The edge has a hamon-like feature(even has a bit of a cloudy appearance) and this is typical in the sandwhich lamination. There seem to be small isolated islands just above the "temper" line in a few spots. I believe the Japanese call these Utsuri(?) and this is a result of a post-quench annealing. I think there might be a seperate spine welded to the body to complete the blade. Overall, a fairly complicated forging with beautiful lines and I imagine quite a sharp and hard edge.

[tom hyle]

Rick's blade does seem to have an applied spine, which as far as I see, is the only unusual thing about it. A mysterious feature I've seen on a variety of swords. It does not particularly look like a sandwiched blade; where would you get that from? A pinched in edge that does not go all the way thru is more likely on a barong, though, of course, one cannot see the difference in a flatwise picture of a SE blade. Both these blades seem to show a long line down the center from a final fold, perpendicular to the plain of the blade (and made before edge insertion). An interesting thing about this is that it is common with Visayan blades to have the last fold leave a prominant closed loop/bend at the tip. How else would it be? folded flatwise. With the loop at the rear. With the loop cut off (often considered a weak/delammy place in many cultures, but here I think we see the Oceanic E Asian concept of completeness.). The spreading of the lines and then coming back together is a natural outgrowth of forging the barong shape; a thick narrow rod is forged out wider and then narrowed to the tip, and is spread out thinner and thinner....
On distinguishing an inlaid edge from a hardening line: It can be hard, especially from photos or with an unetched blade. The easiest way is to follow the layers. If the line follows the waves of the layers it's probably inlaid; if it cuts across the layers and they continue right across it, it must be a hardening line. Another is if you can see it at spine and tip. Outside of Japan temper lines are almost always more or less even/straight (ie. not waved, though they may curve), so if there's a lot of activity that points you toward a lamination line. Of course a blade might have both.

[Gt Obach]

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......

( oh... and billet was also shimmed between the billet on the last fold )


forging a billet out on its welds like this.... really tests how strong your forge welds are....because a poor weld will delaminate easy....

by the way......I love these Barongs .... some day i'll get my mitts on one...

cool post
Greg

[Federico]

Fairly common lamination pattern, done very well. Part of the problem with the net, while a great resource, tends to have a limited selection of actual examples, so it can be hard to guage commonality just on the web. Have a few barongs with similar construction, though in varying degrees of finesse. I figure you could easily say pre WWII for the piece, there isnt a center ridge on the scabbard (hallmark of a post WWII scabbard). Though, at least from the cockatua, I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......


Greg

I'm almost 100% sure that what Rsword meant by "sandwich" is what is (incorrectly from what I'm told) called "san mai" in USA; a full-width layer of edge steel welded between two full-width side plates of iron or lower carbon steel.
Otherwise, I basically agree. I don't think the edge bits were welded on before the final fold, as you propose, and I highly suspect they are pinced into the edge of the blade. Both blades show some sign of this.

[Gt Obach]

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...

as for the center .... its to your advantage to add a layer inbetween when you fold steel... it makes up for the steel lost due to forge scale... (therefore keeping your billet from shrinking in size)

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....

heres a little knife I just made..... cept its got twists and folded...... and no outer edge......but it has the lines

http://gal.bladesmith.org/view_album...e=greg_t_obach

Greg

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...
Greg

Yes, and when you have a sandwich like that part way into the process and you turn it on its edge and smash it flat in the perpendicular plane, so the previously wide layers are now narrow panels, calling that final product a sandwich is stretching clarity. Also, as I say, I'm almost certain it isn't what Rsword meant.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....


Greg

This all may seem sensible, but what I'm speaking from about oceanic SE Asian swords is not sense and reason; it is experience; in my experience the pinched edge is common; the butt welded edge is uncommon, and in older European blacksmithing books (I can't read the Asian ones) is spoken of as being weak. One does see it on many swords, however, including Moro ones, and it is possible here (though likely made in layers and upended the bodies of these swords could be spoken of as composed of narrow buttwelded panels). These just do not look like buttwelds I have seen of this type, which tend to be fairly straight; they look like pinched in edges I've seen, but that is indeed an awful fine distinction to make from photos. I've little doubt that in person either of us could fairly easily see which it is, but seeing this stuff does not come easy to everyone; minds are different from each other. I by no means think it's impossible the edges are butt welded; I just doubt it.

[Spunjer]

WW! didn't realize this thread was going to get this much response! thanks for everyone's comments. sure learned a lot about forging. but what is the difference between pile and sandwich? sounds like it's the same process. tom, i know you brought up on another thread how lamination style could be an age indicator. would be nice if that can be proven on barungs, since the laminations are more readily available on these weapons. as for what i got, i wasn't aware this type of lamination was common; i just never saw other examples. thanks for the pic, rick. it does look similar to mine. mind showing the full sword ?
federico, could you please elaborate when you wrote:

"...I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete."

by that, did you mean because it came with the scabbard?