When in India "died" wootz?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have shown pictures of 2 Anosov's blades: both are Sham.
Any PICTURES of documented Anosov's blades with Taban or Khorasan?
Nothing less than that will suffice.

I showed pages of authentic books Anosov of wootz (1841). I hope no one will argue that Anosov - written with no errors? (He understood the wootz) At the same time, I did not say that did not Anosov damask blades of Wootz steel such as "Sham". There were more than other blades. But did Anosov and "Kara-Khorasan" and "Taban".

On one blade of the "Kara-Khorasan" had 10-20 blades from "Sham". Can someone show 10 blades Anosova? I think the analogy is clear? Blades Anosov save too little. But Hermitage has blade Anosov of wootz steel "Kara Khorasan". Anyone can go to St. Petersburg and look at this blade.

[Jim McDougall]

The excellent entries continue, and Mahratt thank you for adding the translated captions to the Russian sources you provide.
However, you and Ariel are digressing from the theme of the thread.

As I have stated I am enjoying learning more about wootz, but while I think we have properly saluted Pavel Anosov for his outstanding contributions to bulat, I believe we can leave behind the business about which type of blades were produced by him.

Perhaps you and Ariel might find a way to return to the wootz topic beyond the Anosov fixation ?

Thanks again for the great entries outside this digression, and I think the conflicting views as I noted, give good perspective which might be pursued outside this discussion.

[ariel]

The REAL modern wootz!

I give you examples of bulat blades by a Georgian master Zaqro Nonikashvili.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

The REAL modern wootz!

I give you examples of bulat blades by a Georgian master Zaqro Nonikashvili.

Here is a link to an excellent article which explains Zaqro Nonikashvili's "Georgian crucible steel technique".

http://ceroart.revues.org/2557?lang=en

[Emanuel]

Mind you, my comment is specifically about the kirk narduban, not the kara khorasan.

Thank you Ariel and Eric! Magnificent stuff!

[ariel]

Indeed, magnificent!

Just to think that the guy managed to reproduce the most difficult wootz patterns without having any theoretical ( written) or practical ( apprenticeship) help.

This is a work of a true genius. He is a Mozart of wootz.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ariel

The REAL modern wootz!

I give you examples of bulat blades by a Georgian master Zaqro Nonikashvili.

Ariel,
I do not believe the top 2 images shown in above Post#140 are modern production. The lower image is more like it. I think the 2 above are closeups of genuine antique blades added for marketing purposes, as to show what wootz/bulat looks like, casually adding Zaqro Nonikashvili name into association.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Ariel,
I do not believe the top 2 images shown in above Post#140 are modern production. The lower image is more like it. I think the 2 above are closeups of genuine antique blades added for marketing purposes, as to show what wootz/bulat looks like, casually adding Zaqro Nonikashvili name into association.

... just to be clear on who's who.

[ALEX]

here's closeup of a modern Indian-made Kard that can be picked up for under $200, and not the best by far. There are wootz(?) ingots with better "structure" readily available for less than $100. I do not understand what is the big deal with Russian geniuses creating unimaginable bulat masterpieces? Are they any different or am I missing something?

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you for that outstanding synopsis bringing the essential theme topic back into the discussion. It has been an amazing discussion bringing together the many facets of this industry and the mysterious watered steel so sought after. It is amazing that even into our times there is research continuing.

I think that the focus on the Russian scientific and craftsmanship factors is most interesting and most likely the case because of the notable instances which pertain to the rediscovery of much of the wootz mystery. While obviously there are a good number of other areas involved, the work by Anosov in the research angles is of course key.

As with most industry and craftsmanship, there are likely to be many levels and degrees of quality and production. It is extremely interesting to see these pointed out in the observations and illustrations that continue being presented here.
Thank you!

[estcrh]

Dagger with wootz steel blade by Zaqro Nonikashvili.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Dagger with wootz steel blade by Zaqro Nonikashvili.

Wootz is refferred as Bulat in Russian. I am not sure of definition of Bulat related to wootz, but in terms of clasical wootz - i'd not call this blade as such. I know some people would call wootz anything crucible. I am not going by process or components, but by visual pattern, and this is not wootz pattern to me.
Granted, some modern masters produce wootz blades, and of relatively decent pattern, but still lacking complexity and effect of old "twootz of legend".

[mahratt]

Thank you, Emanuel!!!

[Emanuel]

Here is an excerpt from Ann Feuerbach's "Damascus Steel and Crucible Steel in Central Asia" American Society of Arms Collectors Bulletin 82.

The microstructure indicated that this was a high-carbon steel which was slowly cooled. Electron probe micro- analysis indicated that it contained small amounts of other elements, including manganese. This is significant because one of the most famous Damascus patterns is called Kara Khorasan (black Khorasan). In order to form this pattern, the original bulat needed to be high-carbon steel with specific impurities that was slowly cooled.

p.38

After many experiments with different plants and other carbon-containing substances, he [Anosov] concluded that the form of the carbon was unimportant but the amount of carbon in the steel was crucial...He concluded that steel should be pure in order to produce a pattern. This we now know to be true up to a certain point, but we also know that trace elements are necessary (Verhoeven et al., 1998, pp. 58-64), but these need to be present in an amount which Anosov was not able to detect. He studied the effect of titanium, manganese, silicon, chromium, silver, gold, aluminum

and platinum. While performing these studies of alloys, he independently concluded that silicon effects the formation of graphite, that chromium increases the hardness and improves the finish and discovered the effects of other alloying elements....Anosov also discussed the characteristics of the shrinking phenomenon and the necessity of slow cooling for crystal growth as well as the necessity of repeated forging at low temperatures and the different methods of producing different patterns. Textual, archaeological, ethnographic and modern replication evidence shows that these methods can produce steel with a Damascus pattern. Anosov succeeded in producing Damascus steel swords with the characteristic pattern and properties, including swords that could cut silk in the air and bend to a 90 angle and spring back with no apparent structural damage...Anosov only lived long enough to publish an abridged version of his research. This paper, "On the Bulat", was published in the Russian Gorny Journal in 1841 and was translated into French and German in 1843

p.40

So the ore would have been important to the extent that it included trace amounts of manganese, silicon, phosphorus and other elements. These trace elements facilitated the creation of the dark bands seen in Kara Khorasan pattern. Greg Obach experimented with steels with trace quantities of these elements. See his results and decide if it's Khorasan or not

Simplistically then, we're discussing a base dendritic pattern in a high-carbon steel that is the result of the metal smelting process, through more or less slow cooling of a crucible charge heated to mostly liquid phase.

This is followed by a mechanical deformation of this pattern through the forging process, either by fullering, or grinding/cutting grooves into the blade. The grooves are flattened, resulting in the Mohamed's Ladder pattern. The same fullering process would be used on a homogeneous plain steel blade, you just don't get any pattern.

I guess the original Ladder pattern was simply the by-product of the drawing out process of the cake to a bar that could become a blade. A fuller may have been used at first to move the metal, while later grooves might have been cut into the bar on purpose to expose deeper layers and accentuate the patterns.

As far as I'm concerned then, Anosov understood the first step, producing the high-carbon crucible steel with visible pattern. He may not have known which trace elemental amounts were most effective at producing the darker contrast bands due to the technical limitations of his age.

Whether or not Anosov replicated the precise mechanical deformation in the second step is irrelevant to me. Modern smiths now understand both steps pretty well. Does the "secret" of whether you should strike the blade 40 times this way as opposed to 50 times the other way really matter?

[Jim McDougall]

Very well said Emanuel!!! Thank you!!!