It is very interesting. Can you tell me what year this edition? And please tell me the output data: author, title, and page (if it is not difficult)

I believe that information is from chapter 5 of "India's Legendary Wootz Steel: An Advanced Material of the Ancient World", by Sharada Srinivasan, Srinivasa Ranganathan. National Institute of advanced studies, 2004

Thank you!

But there is a question. After this passage:

there is a link to the source of the 19th century from which the author took this information?

Or just the author - so think?

Masalsky wrote in his article is about the melting of wootz steel. Masalsky and Anosov identify wootz or Damascus. So it is about the melting of wootz steel.

I do not know how ideas emerge that Masalskoe watched Damascus steel smelting in Central Asia. It seems to me that it is certain speculations of modern writers (perhaps for the sake of their ideas).
I argue only that what writes Masalskoe. He's in his article never mentions: Central Asia, Bukhara, Bukhara residents or Uzbeks. But he constantly writes about the "Persians". It is logical to assume that Masalsky the observed process wootz steel smelting in Persia.

Once again, I re-read the Lord Egerton. He writes about how to produce wootz in India. And I have not found any information on the termination of wootz steel smelting. Maybe I just missed something? Correct me please.

Asking the Earth: Farms, Forestry and Survival in India, Winin Pereira, Jeremy Seabrook Routledge, Nov 5, 2013. P21.

estcrh, I was very interested in this phrase:

"That is why following the Indian mutiny in 1857; the British ordered the destruction of all the Wootz swords"

The author makes reference to a historical document, mention of this event (The original source of the 19th century)?

Quote: "Finally, it was the dumping of British iron that completed the destruction of the industry. Campbell stated: "Among the most extensive of the exports of England to India, is the trade of bar iron, which to Madras alone amounts to 1000 tons per annum" , as I understand it is a "logical conclusions of the author"? That is, author does not provide any historical documents that speak to cease production of wootz steel in the 19th century? Again, only indirect data?

We all the time we see the work of contemporary writers who bring their thoughts about with what could be related "death" wootz steel in the 19th century. It is interesting. But even more interesting to see the historical documents.

I have not seen any mention of historical documents, just just first and second hand accounts and as you say "authors conclusions", the accuracy of these depends on the amount of research undertaken.

Thank you. I understood you.

We will search further :)

Links for you.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Persian-Swords

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Persian-Swords

https://ncc.academia.edu/AnnFeuerbach

Thank you very much my friend! I have read articles Ann Feuerbach. But I think I need to read them again, to see the article in the context of references to historical documents.

The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Sir Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen, 1954.

Thank you!

Do I understand correctly that in this passage from an article talking about the fact that in 1840 in Bukhara produced wootz on old technology?

That is how I understand it, which could mean that Bukharan swords with bulat blades could have continued to be made quite late. But no evidence in Syria it seems.

Yes exactly. Because 1840 - it can be considered a mid-19th century.

I think wootz produced in mid-late 19 centry (or at least do the blades of old wootz steel billets) in Central Asia and Afghanistan.

Tell me, please, this passage on what page?

Page 973

One question I have....did Persia actually produce wootz steel, I know they produced steel but was it wootz, or did they import their wootz and just forge the blades in Persia.

Many thanks!

This is a difficult question. I do not have data for the 18-19 age. But Al-Biruni wrote that in Herat produced wootz. Herat - is Persia ...

At the same time there is no doubt that the finest blades of wootz steel is made in Persia.

By Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

estcrh, I read a books last days of Russian travelers. Those travelers who were in Persia and Bukhara Khanate in 1820-1900 years. Based on their descriptions - in Persia produced wootz.

Then the same thing that happened to wootz production in Indian seems to have happened in Persia as well.

I think in Persia this happened to the fact that the army was to move to a European arms. Detachments of irregular cavalry (with ethnic weapon) in Persia were not as significant as for example in Afghanistan or Central Asia. By the way it was from Persia to Central Asia brought blades for swords (including wootz blades) until the 1880s.

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

... and still unable to compare esthetically:-)

But other than the beauty of it, wootz ( old and modern) is still inferior to industially-made steels of today. From the technological point of view we shouldn't be ruing its disappearance. From the esthetical one, the inferior appearance of new wootz blades is also not a bad thing: a blade with a beautiful wootz pattern has a built-in guarantee of being a real antique:-)

You're right, Battara.

The question is when it happened. In the middle of the 19th century or early 20th century. Agree - this is a big difference.

Maharatt,
It seem to me, that when this thread has had 65 posts so far, and none of them has been to your satisfacthion, we may conclude, that no one on this forum can give the right answer - so I suggest that you will give us your final word.

Jens, it's not that no one on the forum can not give the correct answer. The fact is that there is no literature of the 19th century, which can confirm that by the mid-19th century, the production wootz and manufacture of wootz steel blades in the East ceased. Yes, in India the era of wootz steel is likely to end in the middle of the 19th century. But remained Persia, Afghanistan and Central Asia ...

No responses yet. There are more questions :)

I think this topic is interesting. And requires further searches the literature of the 19th century, which will help us to discover the secrets of the disappearance of wootz steel.
I think. work together to find simpler. I'm looking for an old Russian literature of the 19th century, where they write about the wootz. For example, in Russian book "Journey to the north of Persia" it is written that in Tehran in a in 1852 did many wootz steel recurved dagger. You are looking at the same books in the English language. For example. I found the book: "Travels in the Panjab, Afghanistan , & Turkistan, to Balk, Bokhara, and Herat and a visit to Great Britain and Germany",1846. Mohana Lāla Munshi

Perhaps write about wootz steel in this book. But, I can not read it quickly, because I know English is bad.

mahratt,
Yes you are right, it is up to you to stop the thread. I cant help you any further with your question, as I have never esearched the question very deeply.

Jens, I'm sorry for seditious words. I hope I did no one not offend these words.

Do not you think that it is much more interesting more global issues related to the ethnographic weapons (especially now since it is possible through of modern technology, when many old books became available) than just discuss something like: "Look, what my lovely saber" or "Guys, what the name of this dagger?"

Of course, it is also necessary. But there are more interesting questions. And we can work together to find answers to them. At least try to do it.

Yes there really are many very interesting subjects besides the weapons. At one time I was reading about the mining, to learn how they got the gems for decorating the weapons.
In the north some of the diamonds were found in river beds, when the rivers dried out, while in other places they mined the diamonds.
Another interesting subject is the geography of India, to better understand the troubles they went through, transporting the very big armies from one place to another, and the amount of water and food they need every day, both for the soldiers but also for the animals.

This is quite true, the amount of information available online now is amazing. You never know what you will find simply by reading older texts. I am sure some more wootz related material will be found this way.

I am sure more info might be available. However, the veracity of each snippet will never be proven. The general idea is well known: plenty of wootz dated to 18 century, much fewer examples after ~ 1850, singular examples by the end of 19 century ( all of dubious dating), virtually none even at the beginning of 20 century.

It just petered out.....

Dating of wootz blades - very controversial issue. Most of the blades has no exact provenance. And any of us to have a more pleasant thing in the collection of the 18th century rather than the 19th century. And so it was up to us)))

Draw conclusions :)

The fact that in the middle of the 19th century in Persia did a lot wootz blades (1850). Wootzs blades for the year 1860 - also known. It is strange to assume that in 1870 (for example) wootz blades suddenly stopped doing;)

Is it safe, then, to assume that an object made with Wootz steel can be dated as pre-1900, absent any other data?

There is a lot to be learned from first hand accounts in period texts. Just like modern books you have to decide what to believe and what not to believe but when an 1800s traveler gives you a window into the world at that particular time period I am grateful that someone at Google has taken the time to digitize it and make it available online for free. I for one am not willing to just completely ignore the information contained in books from this time period, and when you find several different accounts that say basically the same thing you find some level of veracity (accuracy / truth etc).

estcrh, Your words - absolutely true.

Do you have verifiable accounts of wootz manufacture and forging dating to the very end of the 19th century?

Nobody argues about pre-~1850 period, and we are not splitting hair about 1860, 1870 etc. Even epidemics do not stop overnight.

In contrast, there are plenty of wootz blades verifiably dated to the 18th century ( I have one dated twice to 1782 on the blade) and likely even more provenanced ones to that or earlier era. Having cited many sources describing early mass-production of wootz and disappearance of this industry around mid-19th century, you yourself answered the question. As to the 20th century..... The entire "wootz" areal was filled with the Europeans, and there is no mention of the process till independent re-discoveries by Sherby and Verhoeven.

What we believe the very end of the 19th century? 1870? 1880? At this time, wootz blades produced. This is confirmed by the exhibits of the museum with documents.

We need to understand (although any collector would like to think otherwise) that what is written on the blade 1782 does not mean that the blade was made in 1782. For example, everyone knows the cartouches on the wootz blades "Assadula Isfahani." Such cartouches has blades and 18th century, and on the blades of the 19th century. Is it possible for the inscription "Assadula" to say that the blade is required to the 18th century? I think no.

"The disappearance of manufacturing wootz steel" describes only contemporary authors and only indirect facts. Maybe I did not see (accidentally missed some post in the topic) a historical source 19 centry, which suggests that the wootz steel production in the mid-19th century has disappeared? I agree that India could this happen. Although ... India - a vast country. And I doubt that anywhere wootz steel production was forgotten.

But over established production of wootz steel (or at least wootz blades) in Persia in the second half of the 19th century, we have the exact facts.

OK, folks!

Why wouldn't we just say that all wootz blades were manufactured at the end of the 19th century and mislabeled by sneaky dealers as being 300-400 years old, and close this silly topic.
Obviously, Mahratt needs something like that to advance yet another Grand Idea of his. I suspect it will be along the lines that Central Asia was a burgeoning hub of wootz production well into 1990's:-)

Facts do not convince him. Let's just make him happy.

Why reduce everything to absurdity? I understand that the topic may seem silly. For example, when there are no serious arguments confirming that damask stopped producing in the mid-19th century ;)

It is clear that many wootz steel blades were made 400, 300 and 200 years ago. But Kirill Rivkin, once said the right idea. He said that we should look at each blade of the complex, not only paying attention to the cartouche on the blade. For example, the 17th century Persian blades is not similar in form to the blades of the 19th century. And cartouche "Assadula" - is not a guarantee that the blade is made in the 17th century :)

I'm not talking about any ideas, аriel. I demonstrate the facts. And this the facts suggests that the production of wootz blades in Persia did not disappear in the middle of the 19th century (Unlike India). Moreover, it productionis (apparently) not decreased. I understand that the facts are cruel :) And probably, many It's a shame to know that the blades in their collections are not made in the 18th century, and in the middle or the end of the 19th century. But we're all striving to find the truth. Or not?


I would be pleased to see the facts of the sources of the 19th century, which would say that in the middle of the 19th century wootz disappeared. But why no one shows such historical sources ...