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I went back to the pictures of a XVIII century Mudela navaja i once had. The picture quality is not so famous and the ratchet teeth are somehow worn but, might i make a point in that, once the blade accidently disengages from the main notch, are those little scoops that will prevent it from fully folding ... or are they no more than a noise carraca ?
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Fernando
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Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess...... Quote:
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We have the same problem with the navajas that bear the brand (Spanish: Punzon) of Valero Jun of Saragoza. We don't know whether those knives were made in Spain or France and then sold with the distributor's name stamped onto them. This is remains a well entrenched practice in the cutlery industry, and has been for quite a long time. If you have Forton's Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion, have a look on pg93 at #100, a photo of a very French looking navaja. Forton made this comment: Navaja tipica del artesano Valero Jun de Zaragosa, sin embargo la marca de su hoja dice `Navajas De Toledo'. Punzon falso? Ejemplo de que los navajeros toledanos sabian hacer a la perfeccion lo que se fabricaba en Aragon? Sometime ago there was a lively debate on Spanish forums re this topic and the majority opinion was that the knives were made in France and distributed in Spain under the retailers name. This conclusion was reached by considering that: a) These knives were identical with those made in France; b) by the mid 19th century the Spanish cutlery industry was in a very poor shape and imports from France were pouring into the country at the rate of over one million per year (see Forton); And c) the workmanship was way above of the knives made in Spain at that time. But of course, this is something else that will not be settled to everybody's satisfaction in a hurry! Quote:
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Cheers Chris |
Hello Chris, if i may ...
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Page 170/171 [Quoting] The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ... ... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ... ... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on. We can also see in the chapter dedicated to marks, quite a few from the XIX century FABRICA DE TOLEDO; but as expected no one personal mark of sword smiths, as specimens from so early age are not presently gathered ... or revealed to public. Quote:
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One member recalls an anecdote: "During the uprising on the 2nd May 1808 against the French army, the early morning gathered hundreds of people in Puerta del Sol, as news of various confrontations for Madrid were heating up their moods. Suddenly one only voice among the crowd shouted, Hurray for the French, Viva el Rey, Viva España. The following noise which followed that shout was that of hundreds of ratchets being unfolded one after the other, cri cri cri ... all with the same purpose ..." Here is the link, for those familiar with castillian: http://armasblancas.mforos.com/93317...ue-la-carraca/ |
Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the Frech were the enemies. That was the moment when the Spanish people rebelled against the French invaders and fought them with navajas, and tools for livestock management (rejones and garrochas) against the mameluke cavalry.
In the same thread from that forum they mention the intimidating effect of a repeating shotgun beign loaded. Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention. Bad quality of the materials in a mechanism does not invalidate the need of a mechanism, or its utility. I must agree that this mechanism originally has a safety purpose, which in time involved more cultural-oriented purposes. The sound of the ratchet is intimidating against an unarmed agressor, and same is the sound of loading a semi handgun. The potential effect of disuasiveness in this situation is undeniable. It is a way to stop an unarmed agressor. And it works!, but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it. But the the same apply for the case of the fireweapons. And also this could became also as an marketing identifier of this Spanish navajas, along their charcteristic traditional profile. Yes, as Fernando says, it could became a cultural-oriented tradition. But the original function was other. |
Fernando,
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Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA Page 170/171 Quote:
Cheers Chris |
Fernando,
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I found posts 4 and 12 interesting. Re post 19: Gonzalo is right in that the popular sentiment was against the French; Whereas your translation, as I read it, is ambiguous could be read as let us go over to their side. Something like "let us attack the French....", whilst not a literal translation, would have conveyed the intent better. Quote:
A well made navaja ratchet has the peak of the teeth slightly rounded so that it does not cut away the back spring, which by necessity is softer than the blade. Cheers Chris |
Gonzalo,
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Cheers Chris |
My bad
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Hi Folks,
Regarding another query re navajas by Richard, I was looking through my library on this subject and came across a reference by the distinguished Argentinean knife scholar Abel Domenech re the carraca. Succinctly stated, he opines that the reason for it is lost in time, but may have been intended to provide additional security re accidental closure by providing backup notches to the main notch in case it failed. He attributes the poor quality of the early recycled steels used in making navajas for this added precaution. My own view on this is that the sloppy lockwork seen on too many navajas would also have been a contributing factor. He adds, that a navaja with carraca can be opened silently by lifting the backspring away from the teeth. I will add, that as far as cutting oneself whilst closing the knife, this is highly unlikely with old navajas on account the way the knife is usually held during this operation. Cheers Chris |
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Regards |
Vinced ... but not convinced
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This is somehow raining in the wet but ...
Looks like Mr. Abel Domenech, with all his knowledge, doesn't have a doubteless explanation for the carraca either, as he starts by admiting that, the (real) reason for it is lost in time. That the noise of carracas may be prevented by lifting the backspring is evident; but the basic idea was to produce noise, or one would have bought a silent one, with a palanquilla only. And then i go again wondering whether the safety factor, sustained by some (several) opinions, could not be developed with techniques other than that of containing the said emphatic noise. But definitely the carraca riddle is a geneal disease. It is amazing how, in an comprehensice (328 pages) work called INTRODUCCION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE, by José Sanchez Ferrer, we may see detailed pictures of navaja construction as well as detailed data on the birth of the navaja, complemented with carraca notes but, the reason for its existance versus the angle of safety ... zero words. However the preciousness in its making as well of its charismatic noise is well pointed out. The author emphasizes that, having heard of carracas with up to fifteen pinions, the maximum he saw was one with twelve, kept in the National Antropology Museum. And according to what artisan Pepe Exposito told the author, a carraca is well made when the volume of the successive sounds that it emits when unfolding the blade go from minor to greater until the final one is noticed, this one having a different tone, the lodging of the blade in the spring. We may see in the uploaded pictures that, at least one Albacete master makes the carrava teeth very sharp and inclined; possibly other techniques make round and softer. Interesting also the author notes on the navaja date of birth, an issue often wondered and discussed. Here is the ARTICLE and the written parts that i emphasize, so that my lousy translation may be corrected. . |
Thank you for the link, Fer!!
As you said, there is no absolute certainty about the subject. Only more or less reasonable probabilities. Unless we find unequivocal references on the primary sources. Regards |
Fernando,
Thanks for posting the material on the navaja. I have that book and several others, but as you say nobody wants to commit themselves to an explanation. Well, at least Abel Domenech tried.... His opinion re safety may or may not have been the main reason for the adoption of the carraca, but does make some kind of sense. I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic! As for the date when the navaja appeared, that is also lost in the mist of time because there are no surviving specimens that predate 1699. In any event, dating navajas is very difficult because few had the year of manufacture stamped on them and the best one can do is to correlate the typology with paintings and other descriptions Cheers Chris |
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http://pandora.dipualba.es/high.raw?...0000005158.pdf What does it says to you? To me, it says that the subject is not completely investigated. Maybe because those old items disapeared in time or were destroyed, maybe also because this production ended with the christian conquest, as many other valuable Moorish industries (the production of silk, rugs and weapons made of wootz, as indicated on the sources, but it is the matter for another thread). It must be added this quote about the production of edged weapons in Alcaraz: "En el campo de la artesanía, pocos vestigios nos han quedado que puedan arrojar luz, pero son los suficientes para hacer ver que debió desarrollarse en Alcaraz la orfebrería, al menos a finales de siglo. En 1.401 firman juntos un documento dos plateros de la villa: Alfonso Vel y Juan Ruíz (262). También se dió allí una temprana tradición de los trabajos de forja y, sobre todo, de fabricación de cuchillería y armas, en los que destacaban los mudéjares. Un fragmento mínimo de carta que conservamos (263 ) nos habla de que los moros huidos antes de 1.382, a causa de la presión fiscal, eran "ferreros e cochilleros". Posiblemente, algunos fueran artesanos establecidos por su cuenta, pero es más probable que, en su mayor parte, estos "oficiales" trabajaran por cuenta ajena. Ello explicaría quizás el hecho de que el patriciado alcaraceño solicitase de la Reina que eximiese de tributos de aljama a estos infieles, para que pudieran volver a su labor. De todas formas, la crisis de la comunidad islámica arrastró también, al parecer, la de la cuchillería y armería local. Sabemos que, en 1.393, algunos alcaraceños compraban en Murcia sus 'fojas de armas" (264)." Pretel Marín, Aurelio, Una ciudad castellana en los siglos XIV y XV (Alcaraz 1300-1475), Instituto de Estudios Albacetenses "Don Juan Manuel", 1978, pág.61. In a few words, Alcaraz was a center of production of knives; those associated with this production were charateristically muslims and, this production decayed or completely dissapeared because the muslim knifemakers and blacksmiths didn't want to live anymore in this city (or in Spain, basically due the extreme religious intolerance). This also explains why the production of navajas was an item already contemplated in the taxation system already mentioned from the 13th Century. Now, what kid of navajas were produced? I don't believe they were barber razors. Muslims and christian alike were not adept to shave, as the Romans and Greeks. This is why I believe that the history of the navaja in Spain is incomplete and that the participation of the musim population in this history has been deliberately ignored by past researchers. And that the stylistic features of many traditional Spanish navaja are in fact muslim. There is more information on the subject, demostrating that in the city of Albacete there were muslim knifemakers even in the 15th Century. REgards |
Gonzalo,
On Forton: You make valid points and I too have picked up on some things in Forton's books that left me scratching my head. But then, I can pretty much say the same about most books that deal with similar subjects. Writing about old knives is not of mainstream academic interest, and the task usually befalls upon enthuisasts with limited resources who work for the sheer love of it, for there is no financial reward in such research. I should add that Forton is a Spaniard, who is university educated and as of recent, had a collection of some 500 pieces, considered by many as the best in the world. And this collection has been acquired by the Albacete cutlery museum, so he was much better positioned than most who did, or would venture to study this subject. So all in all, with whatever perceived faults his works may have, Forton is the best we have until someone comes along and writes something better. However I do not think that this is likely to happen because he gathered all the readily accessible data and it will be very difficult to improve on this, other than write additional footnotes or make minor corrections. And I should add that all the other serious writers on this subject use his works as the point of departure. Of course, what should have happened years ago was a revision of this book, but so far nothing has come to pass. On the subject of pre 18th century navajas: As I said in an earlier post, the hard evidence is missing and this pushes us into speculation territory. There was a thread here some five years ago re a paper discussing navajas found in a 17th century galleon. Unfortunately, the author of the paper did not produce any evidence of what we call these days a navaja. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15626 and http://www.melfisher.org/pdf/Navajas...2_Galleons.pdf Be that all as it may, I did say in my post #32 of this thread that since folding knives have been around since antiquity, what we consider a `navaja' is a matter of arbitrarily identifying it with a certain typology. So, as things stand at present, if what we call a navaja is a folding knife with a more or less large blade, say 5” plus, which can be locked into the open position, then we cannot regress any further back than the 18th century. With all this said, if we include friction folders, then we can probably go back to Roman times. Cheers Chris |
Well said, Chris. And with all their limitations, I am very grateful to those men who in their free time have written on and shared their love for those items. Without them, we would be in much greater darkness.
Abrazo G |
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Despite these knives being an obsolete "tool" in practical terms, they surely constitute a rather interesting collectible item. I regret having got rid of my few examples; the only one i have left is this palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. Note the care had by the "smith" to replicate all components with their indicated mterials ... and accept my appologies for this impertinent inclusion :o. . |
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as a real antique offensive weapon, it fits in here of course. :) |
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Fernando,
But does it have a carraca? :D Cheers Chris |
kronckew,
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Cheers Chris |
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Fernando,
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“If it ain’t got no carraca, It ain’t much of a navaja” :D :D :D :D Cheers Chris |
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Oh, Fernando, you are quite something...you don´t forget even to make irony. Well, in my country is not prohibited to have navajas of any size...only to stick them to a neighbor...but authorities are lenient about this...since people is machinegunned on the streets by a dozens every day...a matter of priorities. :D :D So, I am open to receive gifts, specially a navaja de carraca, since I don't have any. Never did. Though I have examined some of them... Regards |
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Here's a little one I picked up some years ago.
Six inches open; 5 clicks with the last one being the lock. |
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I have too much money in sharp things as it is so I'll settle for this. :o |
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At least it makes the desired sound when opening. :shrug:
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I used to eagerly await each new issue
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Sometimes when I watch Forged in Fire I feel so stupid. I have seen and may even have antique examples of what the smiths are to make - but I never recall having heard the terminology before. While attempting to clear some of the accumulations of modern life in my attic I have found - buried in a stack of old magazines - an important reference to ethnographic arms in popular American culture - the Atlanta Cutlery catalog for 1996!
Peripherally relevant to this thread, here are listings for the noisy navaja! |
A rather opportune entry, Lee.
... And a very 'romantic' means to expose the carraca noise saga; not without a pretty fair dosis of realism, though. Thanks for sharing that paper. |
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Here is one I picked up from an "Artes de Toledo" shop in Catalonia about 15 years ago which is a dead ringer in dimensions and weight etc. to the first illustration in Lee`s Atlanta Cutlery catalogue.
Miguel |
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"Parece que antes había En la venta del Candil Un enano que tenía Voz equivalente a mil". As if the bragging dwarf freqüented a determined Inn, that of Candil. I accidently see that the term appears often in Cervantes work where, for one, Dom Quixote envisions all Ventas as Castles. |
Hi Fernando,
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Cheers Chris |
So sorry Chris. No wonder, Alzheimer at my age :o.
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