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Old 30th August 2016, 06:20 PM   #61
Jens Nordlunde
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Could be that it was made in cire-perdy (or however it is spelled). In that case there would likely only be one example.
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Old 30th August 2016, 08:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Could be that it was made in cire-perdy (or however it is spelled). In that case there would likely only be one example.
Cire-perdue (lost-wax) process maybe if it were bronze but almost certainly not iron.

On second thoughts, I doubt that the horns can be cast even in bronze with the wax process.

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 31st August 2016 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 31st August 2016, 09:06 PM   #63
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Horns can be done in lost wax, but if iron - crazy difficult and in parts.
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Old 31st August 2016, 11:33 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Cire-perdue (lost-wax) process maybe if it were bronze but almost certainly not iron.
I think sand casting would be the method for making an iron / steel hilt, lost wax is good for metals with a low melting point. With sand casting I do not think you would get as much detail as you would with lost wax.
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Old 1st September 2016, 06:50 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
I think sand casting would be the method for making an iron / steel hilt, lost wax is good for metals with a low melting point. With sand casting I do not think you would get as much detail as you would with lost wax.
Exactly! That's why after casting, the Iron hilts need to be processed to give them the desired finish and detail.
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Old 4th September 2016, 02:02 PM   #66
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Another rams head
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Old 4th September 2016, 02:03 PM   #67
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More rams...http://suroorasia.blogspot.com/2014/...-oriental.html shows an excellent multiple and is from a very famous author...
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Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th September 2016 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 4th September 2016, 02:20 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Another rams head ...two in fact... On Jewelery for comparison...

Persian gold.

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Beautiful Achaemenid Persian solid gold bracelet, featuring a woven design on the band, with two ram heads mounted on each terminal. Each ram heads are realistically rendered and are decorated with intricate and abstract patterns. Rams in ancient Persia were held in high regard as they were seen as a symbol of virility. These styles of bracelets can be traced back to Persepolis, the capital city of ancient Persia and were usually found in the ancient Royal courts of the city. This particular bracelet was likely a tribute to the King. Weight: 3.5 oz.
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Old 4th September 2016, 02:37 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Yes, Indo-Persian Khanjar.
The handle is old, with spots of rust, tarnish and pitting.
The blade, however, is pristine and the wootz pattern is very similar to modern Indian examples.
There is some black mastique oozing from the slit in the handle. Epoxy?
Where did you get it from?
Rajastan?
I am sorry for my paranoid remarks, but that's IMHO.
After seeing some clearly modern but well made swords with wootz blades and hilts being sold on Ebay I think this whole dagger may in fact be a new creation. Here is an example.
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Old 4th September 2016, 03:05 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
More rams...http://suroorasia.blogspot.com/2014/...-oriental.html shows an excellent multiple and is from a very famous author...

Enamelled Dagger National Museum, New Delhi (India)
Late 17th Century
Place of Origin: Rajasthan, Rajput
Materials: Steel
Dimensions: L: 34.9 cm.


The ram-shaped hilt of metal is profusely encrusted with rubies, emeralds and other jewels. The sheath of metal is delicately perforated with images of birds, animals and creeper designs.
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Old 4th September 2016, 04:48 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
After seeing some clearly modern but well made swords with wootz blades and hilts being sold on Ebay I think this whole dagger may in fact be a new creation. Here is an example.
Contrary to my initial oppinion, I concede that you may be right. There are indeed quite a few very good, traditional, but newly made wootz blades on the market. And they are sold as antiques.
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Old 4th September 2016, 05:14 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Contrary to my initial oppinion, I concede that you may be right. There are indeed quite a few very good, traditional, but newly made wootz blades on the market. And they are sold as antiques.
If what I have seen is what I think it is then this very scary. People are being fooled by a new wootz that is a step above what has previously been called "wootz". The swords I have seen have no scabbard or obviously newly made ones, and the swords show no sigh of wear / age etc but they are fooling people, some are selling for a lot of money.

Take a look at this, the cracks in the metal, the lack of wear, the wootz pattern, there is some red rust, this makes me think that the steel rams head dagger being discussed here is of the same type, a modern made replica. The rams head hilt is atypical with other similar examples and while it is pitted there is no sign of wear as you would expect to see on a 100+yr old dagger and there is a small amount of what looks like red rust on it as well. To many warning signs in my opinion.
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Old 6th September 2016, 05:27 PM   #73
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I'm glad we're moving towards consensus. On the other hand, it's a disappointing consensus.

Oh well; they can't all be antiques.
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Old 6th September 2016, 07:32 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
I'm glad we're moving towards consensus. On the other hand, it's a disappointing consensus.

Oh well; they can't all be antiques.
There is still no smoking gun but there is a lot of room for doubt. On the bright side, even if newly made it is an excellent example showing some skill and workmanship not often seen in modern made examples. Many people would not mind owning your dagger even if they knew for sure that it was newly made.
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Old 6th September 2016, 11:34 PM   #75
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Cthulhu:

I don't think you should feel guilty or ashamed for buying a nice dagger believing it was perhaps older than it is. There is a strong market for these well made knives and they are produced within a culture that has been making them for centuries. It's a genuine Indian knife made in an older style, but probably produced recently and not an antique. We all live and learn.

I know a few people who would pay several hundred dollars for such a knife.

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Originally Posted by Cthulhu
I'm glad we're moving towards consensus. On the other hand, it's a disappointing consensus.

Oh well; they can't all be antiques.
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