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Old 10th December 2006, 11:59 AM   #1
Antonio Cejunior
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Smile HISTORY OF STEEL IN EASTERN ASIA EXHIBITION NOW ONLINE

Greetings everyone,

The exhibition online shown below is finally ready to be visited.

Your are most welcome to click on the image and discover it.



You are as well cordially invited to start different topics in this forum concerning your interests.

I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate my thanks to this wonderful forum, to all moderators and all contributors who made this event possible.
I hope you enjoy the virtual visit. Again, thank you very much.
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Old 10th December 2006, 01:41 PM   #2
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GREAT EXHIBITION! Thanks for info on the online exhibition!
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Old 10th December 2006, 03:39 PM   #3
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Thank you for making this available. Very nice to see so many recognizable pieces (and names) in this context.
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Old 10th December 2006, 04:59 PM   #4
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Default INCORRECT PI HISTORY?

There are four significant errors in the historical timeline of the Philippines from the website.
Correct years:
1898 Philippine government declares independence
1899-1902 Philippine-American War (first shot in 1899, declared over in 1902, armed conflict into the 1920s)
1899-1936 Moro-American War (undeclared)/(first shots 1899, full campaigns until 1936 when the military transfers from the US to the Philippine Commonwealth)
1946 US grants Philippines independence

Article states "1898-1901" and "1901-1915" and incorrect independence info?

The term "Filipino" is used too loosely mixing modern adaptation with historical context, the designation was created during the Spanish Era for Spaniards born in the Philippines, so the article doesn't make sense the way its written, citing Filipinos in 10th century China or Spanish era Philippines, etc.

Last edited by MABAGANI; 10th December 2006 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 12th December 2006, 12:28 AM   #5
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Default Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach
GREAT EXHIBITION! Thanks for info on the online exhibition!
Hello Ann,

Thank you so very much for the encouraging words.
Always a great pleasure hearing from a great lady
Very best regards

Antonio
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Old 12th December 2006, 12:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmontoro
Thank you for making this available. Very nice to see so many recognizable pieces (and names) in this context.
I was just the assembler, Montoro. All the tremendously generous collectors who have contributed to this exhibition should be the ones to be congratulated.

They have defined themselves as highly responsible and generous citizens of the world, honest, dignified, honorable.

I wish to publicly thank all and everyone of them. I am honored to have worked with them.

Antonio
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Old 12th December 2006, 01:04 AM   #7
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Gentlemen,

Great effort, congratulations. At the same time I do find certain articles hm... highly nationalistic I would say. Well, most of historians, especially those working on weapons are nationalists of some kind.
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Old 12th December 2006, 01:53 AM   #8
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Best wishes and many thanks to all of you!
I am waiting for the catalogue....
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Old 12th December 2006, 02:38 AM   #9
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At the posters' requests, I have removed several posts. Let's please keep this on-topic folks.

(Ron, you didn't request your post be removed, but it quoted Antonio's, and made no sense after the other posts were removed.).

Last edited by Andrew; 12th December 2006 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 12th December 2006, 08:30 PM   #10
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Default ?

Here's one more missed by the museum curatorial staff -
"1521 Magellan is the first Westerner to land in the Philippines"
I didn't know cowboys existed in the 16th century...lolz

As a matter of fact, Ferdinand Megellan was not the first European to explore the archipelago, but the first to circumnavigate the world, the Portuguese didn't complete his return voyage to Spain because he was killed by the sword on Mactan island in the battle against Lapu Lapu and his warriors.
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Old 13th December 2006, 11:56 PM   #11
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We're off-topic now, and the current discussion is certainly worthy of its own thread.

I'm going to split the topic.
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Old 14th December 2006, 06:39 AM   #12
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Ian, I'll be forwarding an email with more written errors found and passed on to me by contributors and non-contributors for the HOS site.
I retired from the eewrs but after first reading the site, I was astounded and thought it was important to point out the obvious errors regarding history, much of it was already documented so don't take my word for it, unfortunate for the rush to finish without thorough proofreading.
The displays cases throughout each section of the museum looked nice, must have been great for people to see it live.
I'd like to read more reviews about the different exhibits, good or bad...
A researcher once told me hearing everyone praise and agree with him is like talking to a wall, he welcomed others to challenge his theories and work to validate or invalidate his points and to stimulate new ideas.

Last edited by MABAGANI; 14th December 2006 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 17th December 2006, 08:00 PM   #13
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After much thought and consideration, I will respond to this.

As the only person to be involved with both attempts at this exhibit I come to this with perhaps a strange perspective. First, Mabagani, I would have loved to have worked with you on this second attempt. You would have been such an asset and I was dissappointed that you turned down the opportunity. Yes mistakes were made, but I wish you could have been part to help us earlier. These were not intentional nor an attempt to slander any of my fellow Pinoy.

What saddens me is that the anger that this endeavor has generated. I remember a conversation I had with someone who knows Cato and they said that Cato is aware of the mistakes in his work and regrets them. I think as the writers we are open to feedback (yes we were in a hurry that is true) but not to have fingers waved in our faces. If any one feels insulted by what we attempted to do then I am sorry, none was meant.
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Old 17th December 2006, 08:30 PM   #14
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Worthy of headline news- "Macao Snubs Philippines"
Macao museum commits an international faux pas. The original blunder was placing the Philippines in an exhibit called "History of Steel in the Eastern Asia" 2006. What was a grand concept where the museum would host a display of antique weaponry from around the world during the 2005 East Asian Games in Macao, instead turns into a grand fiasco when coordinators revamped the show and misfit the Philippines section into an exhibit about Eastern Asia. In the study of cultures, the Philippines is properly categorized with Southeast Asia and nations with ancient ties to the Srivisaya and Majapahit empires. The coordinators were also informed of blatant historical mistakes after the museum went public with an online site. Instead of rushing to correct the errors made online like the haphazard hurry to finish printed text for the opening and hardcopy, the computer edition easily fixed with the clicks of a keyboard were ignored adding insult to injustice.

pm me
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Old 18th December 2006, 01:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
What saddens me is that the anger that this endeavor has generated. I remember a conversation I had with someone who knows Cato and they said that Cato is aware of the mistakes in his work and regrets them. I think as the writers we are open to feedback (yes we were in a hurry that is true) but not to have fingers waved in our faces. If any one feels insulted by what we attempted to do then I am sorry, none was meant.
I share Battara's feelings but I do not feel one bit apologetic.

I would much rather have seen this project followed through to completion by the original SFI team.

Frankly I'm tired of feeling that I'm being pilloried for having tried to help salvage this exhibition by contributing pieces. I'm also insulted by insinuations that contributions were made in order to get them "published" for personal gain.
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Old 18th December 2006, 01:59 AM   #16
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Gentlemen,
I do not have a dog in this fight and if any of you asks me to shut up, I shall do it with understanding and humility.

Nevertheless, it pains me to see this Forum turning into a shouting match with mutual accusations and acrimony. We have seen it happening elsewhere and it was not a pretty sight.

In the immortal words of Rodney King " Can we all just get along?"
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Old 18th December 2006, 05:48 AM   #17
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I am a vile man, therefore preferring struggle to conformity... However, reading through articles, I liked all of them, with a few exceptions. I dislike the one by Cao Hangang.
Paleolithic Chinese, Chinese creating the art of bronze smelting, which becomes the envy of the world, and the rest, in the same style.

I guess those poor pharohs, scythians and chalybis, starting their day with grieving over the insurpassable quality of Chinese bronze...

I think this article is really bad. I enjoyed reading the rest of them.
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Old 28th December 2006, 05:08 PM   #18
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Default "Tolerance and lest we perpetuate misinformation"

"Tolerance and lest we perpetuate misinformation"

Aside from the botched historical article in the Philippine exhibit, I also forwarded information to coordinators about incorrect categories and mislabeled swords. After bringing these matters to attention, nothing has been changed by the Macao Museum's administrator, in turn inaction is against EEWRS forum rules for inciting "INTOLERANCE", "FLAMES, INSULTS, BIGOTRY" and making statements that are now "knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane" towards the race and nation of the Philippines.

For the record, Filipinos members of EEWRS were treated unjustly as a consequence of the Macao HOS project. Filipinos were publicly bashed on the EEWRS, contributors received artifacts damaged and there was an account of money swindled from a participant. Filipino members wanted to be disassociated from the ill-fated unsatisfactory exhibit.

The article and exhibit for the Philippine section does not merit a critique because its an unresearched rough draft containing too many mistakes. The display itself had false catagories with swords placed in the wrong headings. The exhibit, at least the Philippine section, should have been canceled rather than "salvaged and rushed" and unsuitably grouped with Eastern Asia.

Inadvertently, during and after the course of the exhibit, EEWRS was unable to moderate effectively because a majority of moderators were part of the project. Before the start of the second exhibit attempt I caught the Macao Museum assembler's abusive intolerant nature in a posted thread and decide not to join. Had he been banned for breaking the forum rules this whole episode may not have occurred.

Keep in mind, next time someone plans to do an exhibit, world class museums book their events up to two years in advance, details worked out beforehand. Real museums conserve and protect artifacts including their history. Why the Philippines section was expected to come up with an exhibit practically from scratch in a few months and put in a display about Eastern Asia was senseless and the fallout was unnecessary. Unfortunately, people were misled into peril and would like to put the ordeal in the past.

IMHO this thread should be locked and the link to the HOS website removed "lest we perpetuate misinformation". Individual links (excluding the Philippines section) for each of the remaining exhibit sections could be listed for participants who were able to present decent work and research.
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Old 28th December 2006, 05:39 PM   #19
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the agung plays its final note....


huun, jumanji kami ha mabagani....

Last edited by themorningstar; 28th December 2006 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 28th December 2006, 05:45 PM   #20
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I can hardly see any bigotry involved in disagreement over the exact dates of Moro-American war or who was the first european to arrive at Fillipines. After all the fuss I have seen no reference presented to the presence of anyone visiting the islands prior to Magellan.
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Old 28th December 2006, 06:00 PM   #21
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Mabagani,
I can see you are upset .
I hear you.
Can you, please tell me what was factually wrong with the Ph. exhibit?
What caused such grief in the Ph. community? I Obviously, the exhibition touched a raw nerve; I would like to know what is it in order not to commit a similar transgression with my Ph. co-workers.
What is so offensive about including Ph. in the general realm of SE Asia? After all, that is where geographically it belongs, isn't it?
Please understand, I am not attacking you; on the contrary, I would like to learn from what obviously was an unpleasant experience by and for others.
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Old 28th December 2006, 06:28 PM   #22
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I am not involved with this in any way. I would like a copy of the catalogue. As this is a post on the forum then anyone can reply.

That said, why do we always see this constant squabbling, belligerent postulating, pontificating, and fighting for the final word as if you are all scholarly masters when it comes to any weapons East of the Naga Hills?
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Old 28th December 2006, 08:48 PM   #23
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Or West of Naga Hills, for that matter...
I think it was Henry Kissinger ( a former Prof. at Harvard) who said that academic turf battles are so vicious because the stakes are very small...
I too want to have the catalogue!
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Old 28th December 2006, 09:08 PM   #24
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Quote:
That said, why do we always see this constant squabbling, belligerent postulating, pontificating, and fighting for the final word as if you are all scholarly masters when it comes to any weapons East of the Naga Hills?
that's just it, tim. perspective is a motherSHOUTYOURMOUTH. everyone has their own reason of collecting swords, but i would dare say that for the majority it's nothing but a pasttime, a hobby. yes, you have members that would try to create a pseudo ritual based on what that person have read on what the natives used to do in regards to venerating their swords. why? is it because it's de regeur? why not believe in all the mysticism that's involved within that culture as well? for what, you ask. that's all bullcrap. magick is not real. but you see, therein lies point. why pick and choose on what and what not to believe? that's why i dare say that majority here collects these weapon as a hobby, and that's that person's prerogative.

in regards to your question, whether it's rhetorical or sarcastic, i sense what you're trying to say is that we can't have any scholarly masters in this here forum? or maybe it's something else?
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Old 28th December 2006, 09:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MABAGANI
For the record, Filipinos members of EEWRS were treated unjustly as a consequence of the Macao HOS project. Filipinos were publicly bashed on the EEWRS, contributors received artifacts damaged and there was an account of money swindled from a participant.
Mabagani, i have little doubt that there could be some factual errors in the exhibit which need attending to. Hopefully, if your advised corrections are indeed correct these will be taken care of before the catalog is produced.
Just for the record though, i would like to know just when and where Filipinos have been publicly bashed on this forum, other then the explosive response by Antonio to your original posting which has been removed from this forum for what i feel were very appropriate reasons. And do you seriously believe that that response was racially motivated? Or that there have been other racially motivated argument or attacks on this forum that have not been agressively moderated?
Also for the record i would like to know what other artifacts besides Ron's (Spunjer) barong were damaged in transit. I keep hearing an unnumbered plural in regards to this accusation. I don't mean to lessen the tragedy of Ron's story, but there is a big difference between saying one piece was damaged and, say, ten pieces were damaged. So just for the record, what is the number of damaged pieces?
And just for the record, since an accurate record should be important in this case, just who was "swindled" out of money in regards to this exihibition and how?
It is certainly clear that some folks got their toes stepped on here and it is also clear that they are steppin' back, so to speak. I am in no position to judge just who has been right or wrong here, and i often say that there are at least three sides to every story, but i do believe we can discuss this subject calmly and sensibly without drawing the "race card" into the question.
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Old 28th December 2006, 10:43 PM   #26
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I rather fancy it is something else.
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Old 29th December 2006, 12:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
why not believe in all the mysticism that's involved within that culture as well? for what, you ask. that's all bullcrap. magick is not real. but you see, therein lies point. why pick and choose on what and what not to believe?
I am a firefighter and have worn a St Florien ( the patron saint of firefighters) metal every day of my life for 30 years. How could I ( or anyone else then ) judge someone negatively for some other beliefs in ritual or talismans. We all choose what we believe in but that does not make my belief any more valid than someone elses or vise versa.

That said I would like to see things not escalate to anger. I think so many people here have so much to share and contribute, and they have certainly done so freely with me.

Last edited by RhysMichael; 29th December 2006 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 29th December 2006, 08:44 PM   #28
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COULD THE EXHIBIT HAVE BEEN PERFECT "NO"!! COULD IT HAVE PLEASED EVERYONE? "NO"!! ANYTHING PEOPLE DO IS NEVER PERFECT NOR CAN IT PLEASE EVERYONE.

IT COULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER EXHIBIT IF MORE TIME MORE MONEY AND A BIGGER MUSEUM IN MACAU SO A LARGER EXHIBIT COULD HAVE OCCURED. GOOD TEAM WORK BETWEEN ALL GROUPS AND FACTIONS WOULD HAVE ADDED TO THE ACCURACY AND LESSENED THE DISSAPOINTMENTS OF SOME.

IN THE REAL WORLD THERE WAS A VERY SHORT TIMETABLE, LIMITED MONEY, SPACE AND NO TIME TO CONSULT EVERYONE AND MAKE SURE OF ALL THE FACTS AND THAT NO FEATHERS WERE RUFFLED. THE ARTICLES PUBLISHED WERE THE WAY THE PEOPLE FROM THOSE CULTURES VIEWED THEIR HISTORY AND AS SUCH OFTEN AT ODDS WITH OTHER CULTURES OR COUNTRYS. I COULD WRITE AN ARTICLE ON WHAT I THINK THE PHILLIPPINES ARE ABOUT BASED ON WHAT LITTLE I KNOW OR HAVE READ IN ALL INNOCENCE AND NO DOUBT ANGER MANY DUE TO MY POINT OF VIEW AND IGNORENCE. IF ONLY ONE ITEM OF THE MANY SHIPPED OVER AND BACK WAS DAMAGED IT IS UNFORTUNATE BUT REMARKABLE THAT THE DAMMAGE WAS SO SMALL. I PACKED MY ITEMS TO WITHSTAND NUCLEAR WAR, TSUNAMI OR VOLCANIC ERUPTION SO THEY CAME THRU OK, BUT BAGGAGE HANDLERS CAN BE WORSE THEN ANY OF THOSE.

IN FACT THE EXHIBIT WAS A REMARKABLE AND WORTHY ACCOMPLISHMENT WITH ALL THE MISTAKES AND UNINTENTIONAL OMMISSIONS AND THINGS CONSIDERED AS INSULTS OR MISLEADING ERRORS. THE FACT THAT A SMALL MUSEUM MADE THIS ATTEMPT AND FOLLOWED THRU TO COMPLETION SUCH AN EXHIBIT AND HOPEFULLY THE CATALOG, IS WORTHY OF PRAISE AND APPRECIATION. HOW MANY EXHIBITS OF ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS HAVE THERE BEEN IN RECENT YEARS?
ANTONIO WAS UNDER MORE PRESSURE FROM THE EXHIBIT AND LACK OF TIME AND HELP THAN ANY ONE MAN SHOULD BE AND ALSO HAD MORE IRONS IN THE FIRE AS WELL AS HIS OWN LIFE TO LEAD. IF I HAD BEEN IN HIS SHOES I WOULD HAVE RAN OFF TO QUILIN CHINA AND LIVED IN A CAVE AS A HERMIT FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO EXHIBIT. SO I UNDERSTAND AND APPRECIATE ALL HIS HARD WORK EVEN IF IT IS NOT PERFECTION. ANTONIO HAS ALWAYS CAME ACROSS AS A GENTELMAN TO ME BUT CONSIDERING THE STRESS AND HARD WORK HE HAS BEEN UNDER A HARSH RESPONCE TO THE EXHIBIT WOULD BE LIKE A SLAP IN THE FACE SO WOULD NO DOUBT DRAW A HOT RESPONCE. WHICH WOULD THEN BE REGRETTED LATER. I HAVE CERTIANLY DONE IT A FEW TIMES MYSELF WHEN I THOUGHT I HAD DONE MY BEST AND SOMEONE TRASHED MY WORK AND SAID IT WAS WORTHLESS I WAS SUPRIZED AND THEN FURIOUS. I DON'T MIND SOMEONE TELLING ME WHERE I GO WRONG AND HELPING ME TO CORRECT IT BUT AM NOT TOLERANT OF ATTACKS ON MY INTELLEGENCE WITH NO RECOMENDATIONS ON HOW TO CORRECT IT.

IT WOULD BE GOOD IF THE INCORRECT INFORMATION IN THE CATALOG COULD BE CORRECTED AND THE MUSEUM SHOULD RESPOND TO ANYONE WHO TAKES THE TIME TO POINT OUT MISTAKES EVEN IF IT IS TOO LATE TO CORRECT THEM AS A PROFESSIONAL COURTSY. BUT SOMETIMES THAT DOSEN'T HAPPEN FAST DUE TO LACK OF TIME INTERPRETERS OR FUNDS.

PERHAPS SOME OF OUR AMERICAN PHILIPPINO MEMBERS COULD WORK WITH A MUSEUM IN THE PHILIPPINES AND ORGANIZE AN EXHIBIT THERE. WHERE THEY WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO MORE ACCURATE INFORMATION AND WE COULD GET TO SEE SOME OF THEIR COLLECTIONS. WE AS COLLECTORS ARE INTERESTED IN ALL THE CULTURES OUR WEAPONS COME FROM, BUT TO HAVE PRIDE IN THE CULTURE IT MUST BE YOUR OWN. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT BLOOD OR PRIDE IT IS EASY TO MISUNDERSTAND AND CONSIDER THINGS UNIMPORTANT AND CAUSE HARD FEELINGS WITH THOSE WHO CONSIDER THEM AS VERY IMPORTANT. PLEASE TRY TO FORGIVE OUR IGNORENCE AND LACK OF SENSITIVITY AS WE NEVER MEAN TO INSULT AND WE WILL ALSO TRY TO STAY COOL IF YOU UNKNOWINGLY TROD ON OUR TOES.

SO I FOR ONE AM WILLING TO FORGIVE ANY MISTAKES OR OMISSIONS AS I FEEL IT IS BETTER TO HAVE HAD AND PARTICIPATED IN THE EXHIBIT THAN TO HAVE HAD NONE AT ALL.
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Old 29th December 2006, 11:31 PM   #29
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I'm traveling and responding on my PDA. I need some time and a laptop to digest some of this. Until then, I'm locking this thread.

Everyone please cool down.
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Old 30th December 2006, 11:27 PM   #30
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After careful consideration, I'm reopening this thread.

This discussion must stay civil.
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